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Archive for October 2010

I’ll be honest about the roman baptist church, will you?

with 5 comments

Another really good post by brother Jim on such an important topic. (


I’ll be honest about the roman baptist church, will you?


I have been very edified by the many videos I have watched on the illbehonest YouTube site.  However, I would like to examine one extremely unbiblical and disturbing video that has been posted and supported by them.  I submit this article in a spirit of Christian grace, knowing that all true saints are in need of such grace from one another as “Love covers over a multitude of sins”.  I am truly thankful for the many edifying videos illbehonest has produced to help God’s people near and far.  That is my heart in writing this, though I will be very direct because of the seriousness of this matter.  I have sent a link to this article to the brethren at illbehonest along with posting it.  If anyone from illbehonest wants to respond to this article, you are welcome to do so anytime.

Here is the six minute video, please check it out in its entirety before reading any further.

If all that was meant by this video is that true Christians should find fellowship, without compromising on major issues, I would certainly agree with a sound amen.  If all what was being said is that it’s beneficial personally and as an expression of the church of Christ on earth for believers to meet regularly as outlined in the New Testament then I would not be writing this article.  However, this video goes far beyond this in threatening the many true saints of God who have fled local churches for truly Biblical reasons.

I would like to address three great errors in this video.  The first and most serious error is the roman catholic implication that there is no salvation apart from being a member of a local church.  The second error is the underlying theme that the typical local church (senior pastor, building, Sunday service) can even be considered New Testament fellowship.  The third error is in threatening God’s judgment on the true saints who have fled from an apostate or roman catholic modeled “bible believing” church.  In addressing these errors I would also like to expose the blatant roman catholic spirit behind this video and warn those who promote this video to be very careful of falsely condemning true saints who are currently out of fellowship, especially if they themselves are not in true New Testament fellowship either.

This video not only falsely condemns true saints of God but it also characterizes them as misguided or sinful.  This is the same tactic that the roman catholic church used on the reformers.  Giving the sheeple the impression that those who have fled their religious institutions are in danger of hell (and not worth listening to) inoculates them from the prophetic voice that often comes out of the wilderness.   This is a great way to control religious people as Rome has been using it for centuries.  Such actions truly are what call for the judgment of God.   In direct contrast to the unbiblical lies taught in this video, the cry of God to His saints is to come out from among the apostate churches.  Even of the roman catholic modeled “bible believing” churches He says I hate their nicolatian practices and affirms His saints who do likewise.

I would call on the brethren at illbehonest to take a good long look at the message of this video, at the clear word of God as presented in this response, and to spend some time in the prayer closet considering their endorsement of this travesty that they have not only published but also repeatedly defended.  I have arranged my reply with comments in the same order as they appear in the video, and I have strived to quote to the letter exactly what was spoken (in bold font), though that should not be an issue since you can re-watch the video if you want to hear it again first hand.

The Church always takes shape in the local body of believers who are in union and fellowship with one another

I will answer this false statement from a comment already posted by another brother on the YouTube video.  I will also add that sitting in a pew to listen to one man teach does NOT constitute being in union and fellowship – even with a monthly potluck thrown in the mix.

While there is great importance in the local church, this video starts out with a false presumption of the definition of church, that being that the “church” in Scripture is only the gathering of believers together in a local assembly. The “church” may include that, but it is first of all those who have been born again. It consists not of brick and mortar, but of living stones, every individual believer 1 Corinthians 15:9, “For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.” Paul didn’t persecute the local gatherings per se, but he certainly did persecute individual believers, such as Steven, who are the church. The church is literally the PEOPLE of God. Each one. Most of the local churches in America are apostate (or borderline apostate). Many true believers belong to none of them, yet these believers are still the church.

There is no such things as a lone ranger, I call it being a lone ranger, me being saved out here apart from my fellowship and my participation in the local body

This gets right to the heart of the matter.  I call this the spirit of the roman baptist church.  I will extend great grace here and assume the speaker does not really mean what he just implied, that is, there is no salvation apart from being a member of a local church.  If anyone really teaches and believes this I would treat them as I would a roman catholic, as being an apostate who is outside of Christ’s true Church and is himself in need of salvation.  Speaking of lone rangers, it is ironic that even in “bible believing” churches the senior pastor fills a man made position that makes him a lone ranger.  Ephesians 4:11-15

I can’t know that I’m a real Christian unless I’m in the local church, you can’t know, you can’t have any assurance that you are a real Christian by reading books and by listening to sermons and being out here isolated and say “well its wonderful oh we love God” (said in a semi sarcastic tone)

I will continue to extend great grace up to this point and assume the speaker does not really believe what he is saying.  Our assurance that we are truly Christians comes from the Holy Spirit within us, and is evidenced by Holy fruit in our lives.  The apostle Paul spent years in the wilderness, the Ethiopian eunuch was sent on his way alone after being baptized.  They may only be a couple of examples but they are undeniable none the less.  In the day that we live in I know many true brethren that love God and are very thankful to have escaped from apostate or nicolatian churches.  In fact, most of the genuine brethren that I know have spent much time outside of an established local church (though I have never heard of a true believer that didn’t long for fellowship with other brethren).   The Lord used messages heard over the internet and books from Godly men of the past to help mold many of these saints.  I am less worried about such saints, even if they are currently in the wilderness for a long season, then I am for the speaker in this video and illbehonest for posting it.  Romans 5:1-2

If we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ, God’s son, cleanses us from all sin

This verse is actually saying the exact opposite of what this video would have us believe.  God’s plain word says that if we walk in the light (follow after Christ’s effectual calling on our life) THEN we have fellowship with one another through the head of the Church – Christ Jesus Himself.  It does NOT say that if we attend protestant mass (Sunday service) every week and call it fellowship then we are walking in the light.   Ironically the majority of those who sit in local fellowships are not walking in the light.  They are neither connected to Christ the head, or to His body.  They are very well connected to other unconverted pew warmers through religious structure though.

How can we say we love God and not be in union and in fellowship and in love with brothers and sisters in Christ in a local body

I think I can say biblically that if someone is truly saved they will love to fellowship with other true brethren.  As I’ve already stated though, the sad fact is that 90% of the established local (institutional) churches are apostate and of the 10% remaining most are modeled after roman catholicism and are run by a nicolatian spirit.  Even at “bible believing” churches the “fellowship” is mostly compromised of sitting in a pew and staring at the back of somebody else’s head for an hour or two while listening to the one fold ministry lecture week after week.  Even meeting with another brother once a week for Bible study over coffee (or over the internet even) is closer to true fellowship then what the typical local church offers.  Though these examples fall well short of having a true New Testament local church I believe it is probably better to have small pieces in place and built on the right foundation of true fellowship, then to have a confused religious system that needs to be torn down or completely rebuilt from the foundation.

To quote something a good brother of mine recently wrote on this very subject:

This whole discussion comes down to defining what’s biblical fellowship and how the saints should meet. For many who have left institutional, denominational churches people will say to them “you have no fellowship”. The reality is, they (the institutional church members) most often do not have fellowship either. They are just deluded or ignorant of the fact that coming together for 1.5hrs on Sunday morning to sing a few songs, take up an offering, listen to a few announcements, and hear a man preach for 30 minutes..does not constitute fellowship. Many churches actually call this time their “service” or “program” and that is exactly what it is. It’s certainly not fellowship. While it is of utmost importance, and should be every believers heart desire to fellowship with other saints, we should not confuse going to a service as biblical fellowship.

This is God’s will for all of His children that they be in a local church submitting themselves to a pastor, submitting themselves for accountability, to be where you can be admonished, and exhorted and to hear the teaching of the word of God WEVE GOT TO HAVE THAT TO BE SAVED and if we forsake that

OK, I can no longer extend any grace here, this is absolute roman catholic heresy straight from the pits of hell.  It is no wonder that true saints are running for their lives from such “bible believing” churches.  I would hope that illbehonest would pull this ridiculous video from their site based on this one comment alone.  Galatians 1:6-10

there’s no way in the world you sit alone by yourself and take the Lords supper

There’s also no way in the world you can call passing a plate of wafers around while staring at the back of someone’s head at Sunday service the Lords supper.  On the other hand, you can sit at home with your wife, or in your weekly Bible study with another brother and truly enjoy a meal along with unleavened bread and the fruit of the vine together.

It’s a supper and it’s for the family

When my family eats supper we usually do not line up in pews and have someone stand up on the table to read a dinner time message to us while we eat a wafer with a shot of grape juice.

There’s no way in the world you can baptize yourself

I baptized my wife and hope in the Lord to baptize my children.  They do not have to run down to the local institutional “church” and be baptized by a hireling pastor.

I’ll say again there are a lot of misguided, misdirected, souls that don’t want to have any part to do with the local church they are greatly in error

I will say in return that this speaker and those who support this video are misguided and in greater error.  Further, if they themselves do not have true New Testament fellowship (as opposed to attending the typical Sunday service week after week) they are acting as hypocritical Pharisees and are in great danger of the judgment of God.  This is exactly what the Pharisees did, they judged falsely based on their carnal traditions.   Luke12:1 Matthew 7:3-5 Matthew 16:6

I would not go so far to say that all of them are completely lost but I’m saying this, they are going to be very stunted and have an accounting

True believers in institutional churches are the ones severely stunted by their roman catholic church structure founded on a one fold ministry.  The very fact that these saints can read the word of God and not discern that their fellowship looks nothing like what they just read proves this well.  I would also like to point out that besides the few true saints out in the pews the vast majority of people in the local churches are completely lost.  That goes double for those in the Bible belt.   Ephesians 4:11-15 2 Corinthians 6:14-18

If they’re not willing to be accountable here they’re going to have to give an account to “him” one day and I sure wouldn’t want to be standing before the Lord Jesus Christ when he says why on earth you wouldn’t be a part of my church

There are many true saints that are not involved in the local church because of the reasons I have mentioned. Sometimes all they have is fellowship over the internet, or even just listening to messages.  Sadly that is all some have for now though they long for more!  While over the internet may not be very close true to New Testament fellowship neither is the Sunday service. Again, the Lord does not condemn His people for fleeing those churches as this video falsely does, however, He does hate the practice of the nicolatians and warns His people to come out from apostate churches.  Revelation 2:6 Revelation 2:15-16 Revelation 18:4-5

I have a friend who one time wrote a tract go to church or go to hell – it was very enlightening little bit of literature

OK, you’ve scared me into submission.  I will be at protestant mass on Sunday with my check book in hand so you can read the Holy Scriptures to me, the common and ignorant laity, and accept my tithes while offering prayers to God for me that I might be saved.  This again may be harsh but it reflects the heart of this video and of the roman baptist church.  I am not just picking on baptists here either; most protestant churches seem to be maturing into the harlot daughters of rome.  In this day and age it is often better to be sitting outside of fellowship then to be compromised with apostasy or to be conquered over by the nicolatian leadership of the “bible believing” churches  (of course to start building true new testament fellowship with the brethren is better yet).  Matthew 23:13

why would the Lord have you in a place where there would not be a church

Why would the Lord allow His sheep to sit in a roman baptist institution week after week and call it “church”?  That is a rhetorical question.  While we are exhorted not to forsake gathering together (in no way does gathering together equal Sunday service which is usually no true gathering at all) we are also exhorted to “come out from among them” and to “flee from Babylon”.  I am in no way saying that all professing believers who attend local / institutional churches are in Babylon or are lost.  I would only exhort those true believers to seek God earnestly over the empty traditions that were handed down to them and that they have followed.  Roman catholic traditions keep God’s children in bondage and do not lead to a mature body under the headship of Christ.  I know there are even true elders / pastors that stay in that system and try to genuinely glorify God in it.  I am thankful for them and love them in Christ, as many have been used to bless and teach me much in the past.  I am not pronouncing condemnation on them in any way, just on those who love and support the practice of the nicolatians.  These practices are the very reason many true saints are out of the local church in the west.

I will part with another comment left by a sister on this YouTube video.  These words may very well testify against the apostate and nicolatian “bible believing” churches on the Day of Judgment.

I don’t attend the institutional church, I tried, but I refuse to sit in a church week after week where false teaching abounds. I submit to my husband, my husband submits to Christ. If I made a pastor my covering, I would be dishonoring my head (my husband). If my husband were to make his covering a pastor, then he is dishonoring Christ.  I live in a community of Sunday Christians, Monday sinners. I live in the part of the South that Paul Washer preaches about. I’m better off worshipping at home

Written by Sean Scott

October 26, 2010 at 3:26 am

Posted in Uncategorized

The retardation of the saints

with 15 comments

(Below is a post from brother Jim’s blog at:     This is like the final frontier in body ministry and expression that most people will never venture into.  The sad thing is that instead of being the final of the last greatly needed components of church life this is actually supposed to be foundational.  There’s more resistance to this foundational truth in most churches than resistance to almost any other truth.  I have confidence though that the Lord is and will restore this wonderful manifestation of His body more and more till the day He come to gather His Saints – His glorious Bride. )


And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: ~ Ephesians  4:11-15

Why is it that even among sincere evangelical Christians who sit and listen to sermons week after week we have a generation that is being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine?  It is because the senior pastor has usurped the authority of other members of the body of Christ in the local church.  I do not mean to say that all senior pastors are willfully doing this, but it is the end result of their position.  The typical evangelical church structure, along with the senior pastor position, is mostly foreign to scripture and is a sad carry over from Roman Catholicism. Even among sincere Godly men the fruit of following these empty traditions is undeniable.

Thinking of the scripture above, it would be more honest if we got a new version of the Bible that read “And he gave some to be senior pastors; and below him some associate pastors; some children’s pastors; and some music pastors; for the retardation of the saints”.  It’s really interesting to look at how the senior pastor came about and rose to such prominence.  An honest look will reveal that it is based on the papist system and not on the word of God.  It is not an innocent matter of how we do church either; it is a matter of stunting the growth of the body of Christ.  Where were teachers listed in the epistle to the Ephesians?  How about in this letter to the Corinthians?

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?  ~ 1Corithians 12:27-30

They are listed simply as members of the body of Christ, amongst the other giftings given to the Church.  Yet I doubt many could say with a straight face that today’s senior pastor is viewed in such a manner.

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.   ~1Corithians 14:29-33

One of the most ridiculous things I have seen in this area is a senior pastor of the AOG church we used to attend stop a man from prophesying during a quiet time.  I believe the man to have really been speaking prophetically in accordance with the word of God (and he had done so in the past too) when the senior pastor tells him to be quiet from the pulpit because he was just starting to speak when the old prophet started speaking.  The senior pastor then said something along the lines that “the Holy Spirit can’t be speaking through you since I think he wants to speak through me, because God is not a God of confusion and disorder”.  This was done in front of the whole Church, and even as a young believer I knew something was out of line but who would dare question the almighty pope (I mean senior pastor, that’s what Protestants call their pope).  Yet that is what we have accepted as normal and what Christ hatefully calls the practice of the nicolatians.  Even the spirit of the prophets is now subject to the protestant pope.  Here again is a more honest writing of 1 Corinthians 14

Let the senior pastor speak week after week, and let the others sit quietly and take notes.  If anything be revealed to another that sitteth let such a one remember who it is that has the reserved parking spot and keep it to himself.  For you are not the senior pastor and so you must hold your peace until after service.  And the spirits of the pew warmers, prophets, and everyone else for that matter, are subject to the senior pastor.  For God is not an author of confusion, that’s why he distinguished the important guy by placing him on a stage.

Brethren, I do not write these things lightly or want to be seen as being negative or tearing down and never building up.  But the Lord has confirmed this word to me today and I submit it in humility.

Written by Sean Scott

October 5, 2010 at 4:26 pm

Posted in Uncategorized