Why Lordship Salvation is not Biblical
Lately, I’ve been doing a lot of evangelism on the streets. Because of this, I’ve been ordering tracts from different sources online. As I’ve been reading the different tracts from many of the more “known” ministries that you can buy tracts from, I’ve noticed that many of them are not correct in their presentation of the gospel, especially as it relates to the definition of repentance. In many circles, there has been a definite push and focus on the word “repentance.” It’s often said that repentance is the missing key to much of the false gospel that is being presented today. Obviously, repentance is a major issue, something that God requires and that is essential to saving faith. But this begs the questions…just what exactly is biblical repentance? Many of the gospel tracts that I’ve read specifically define repentance for the reader. Many of them say things like repentance means “turning from all known sins,” “to forsake sin,” “to forsake sin completely,” “to die daily and carry your cross,” and other things along those lines. But is that the biblical definition of repentance? I’ve come to find out that repentance means many things to many people. But the only thing that really matters when it comes to a discussion about repentance is how does the Bible define repentance in both definition and example?
REPENT & REPENTANCE
I’m certainly no Greek scholar, but a simple study of the Greek words for “repent” and “repentance” show that the definition of the words mean: change your mind, reconsider, or think differently. Specifically, repentance means to change, or have your mind changed, about who God is and what He has said about Himself, about Jesus Christ, and about ourselves. Repentance is something that happens in the mind and heart as we are convinced by God’s Spirit regarding the truths of the gospel. It is not a commitment to reform our lives, a commitment to stop sinning, nor is it a commitment to completely surrender to God. Often times, when repentance is mentioned in a gospel presentation, people confuse the fruits of repentance with repentance itself. For instance, like I stated above, people tell men to repent and then define repentance as “turning from all known sin” or to “forsake all sin.” However, when people do this as they present the gospel, they are putting the cart before the horse. They are calling men to do something they are not able to do. They are requiring faith plus works to be saved. The question is, how can a man forsake all his sin when the scripture says that:
He who sins is a slave of sin. (John 8:34)
And that we are not free from the bondage of sin until we are made a new creation in Jesus Christ:
Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Rom 6:6-7)
Is a man required to forsake all his sins to receive salvation in Jesus Christ? Must a man stop sinning in order to be saved? The answer is no. Nowhere in the Bible are men required to stop sinning in order to be saved. (It’s clear from Romans 6:6-7 that we don’t even have power over sin until we’re born again.) However, if you erroneously define repentance as a complete forsaking of sin, then you are telling men that they must do something in addition to having faith in Jesus Christ for their salvation. This is a common gospel that many are preaching today; and I myself have preached it in error before. Yet it is not the gospel of Jesus Christ but instead is a gospel that leaves men in hopelessness and in bondage. How are you going to tell a man to stop sinning who is in bondage to his sin nature? Again, many today when they preach the gospel are confusing repentance with the fruits of repentance. (I’m going to speak more to this toward the end of this post.)
TWO MAIN CAMPS
As I began to notice just how many tracts that are sold are incorrect, I began to study repentance so I could understand it biblically. This inevitably led to the study of people that hold to two different views on this subject. One is called Lordship Salvation. Probably the biggest spokesman for this camp today is John MacArthur. There are many others as well who hold to this view who usually fall into the Calvinist camp. On the other end of the spectrum, you have those who are in what is called the Free Grace camp. This group has had spokesmen such as Charles Ryrie and Zane Hodges, and ministries like Grace Evangelical Society. Like many systems of theology, I’ve found that both of these positions go to extremes that make them unbiblical. With this post, I want to start, and mainly focus on Lordship salvation.
LORDSHIP SALVATION
Like I said above, one of the most vocal voices espousing Lordship Salvation today is John MacArthur. In fact, he’s written a book promoting Lordship Salvation titled “The Gospel According to Jesus,” which I believe has been revised three times. This book, as far as I can tell, is the book that has most propelled Lordship Salvation to its status as an accepted doctrine in our day. It’s a doctrine that I disagree with and one that I believe perverts the true gospel of Jesus Christ. So what is Lordship Salvation? It carries the idea that for one to be saved, one must forsake all sin, be willing to carry one’s cross and die for Jesus, live a life of self-denial, and implicitly obey and fully surrender to the Lordship of Christ. But instead of me trying to explain it alone, let me quote John MacArthur and others on this subject and then comment on their quotes.
Let me say again unequivocally that Jesus’ summons to deny self and follow him was an invitation to salvation, not….a second step of faith following salvation… Those who are not willing to lose their lives for Christ are not worthy of Him. He wants disciples willing to forsake everything. This calls for full-scale self-denial – even willingness to die for His sake if necessary. (The cost of following Discipleship – The Gospel According to Jesus.)
Thus in a sense we pay the ultimate price for salvation when our sinful self is nailed to the cross…It is an exchange of all that we are for all that Christ is. And it denotes implicit obedience, full surrender to the Lordship of Christ. Nothing less can qualify as saving faith. (1st version, The Gospel According to Jesus, pg. 140)
Saving faith is a commitment to leave sin and follow Jesus at all cost. Jesus takes no one unwilling to come on those terms. (1st Version, The Gospel According to Jesus, pg. 87)
Anyone who wants to come after Jesus into the Kingdom of God—anyone who wants to be a Christian—has to face three commands: 1) deny himself, 2) take up his cross daily, and 3) follow him.” (Hard to Believe, p. 6.)
So in John MacArthur’s first quote, he says that one must be willing to forsake everything and even be willing to die for Jesus to receive salvation. Notice he is not saying that this is the attitude of believers after they have been saved; he is saying one must have this attitude in order to be saved in the first place. In his second quote, John MacArthur says for a person to be saved, they must resolve to have implicit obedience and fully surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Again, he is not saying that this should and would be the attitude of those who have been saved, but it is the attitude one must have in order to be saved in the first place. In MacArthur’s third quote, he says that saving faith is a “commitment to leave sin and follow Jesus at all cost.” If someone doesn’t commit to leave all their sin, then they cannot be saved by Jesus Christ. And lastly, in his book “Hard to Believe” MacArthur says that if anyone wants to be a Christian they HAVE to face three commands; deny himself, take up his cross, and follow him. So these three things have to be addressed BEFORE one can be saved and become a child of God. They are prerequisites to salvation; without which, if a man does not commit to, he cannot be saved and will die in his sins. Now you’re probably thinking, “What’s wrong with what John MacArthur has said? After all, a lot of these things are mentioned in the New Testament, both in the gospels and in the Epistles.” The problem with what John MacArthur is saying is that he is making the fruit that FOLLOWS belief a requirement BEFORE one can be saved. So according to Lordship Salvation, one must be willing to forsake everything, be willing to die for Jesus, resolve to have implicit obedience, fully surrender to the Lordship of Christ, commit to leave all sin, follow Jesus at all cost, AND have faith in what Jesus has done for us on the cross. Lordship Salvation, in essence, requires a sinner to do what he is unable to do. He must do and commit to do all these things in order to receive the salvation Jesus offers, even before he has the Spirit of God dwelling in him. The salvation Jesus offers is no longer a free gift to be received; it is a gift to be meritoriously achieved (earned by merit).
Steve Lawson, another proponent of Lordship salvation, says it this way:
If you want to receive this gift it will cost you the total commitment of all that you are to the Lord Jesus Christ. There are many here who think they are saved, but are not; they have never really done business with God….I want to single you out in the midst of the crowd. Have you taken up a cross in order to follow after Christ? Have you recognized your own sinfulness, acknowledged that God’s judgment is true, have you acknowledged Christ’s right to rule your life? Have you submitted to the Lordship of Christ? Have you really come to the end of yourself? Because Jesus does not begin until you end.” (The Cost of Discipleship, It Will Cost You Everything, Resolved Conference, Feb. 2007)
So according to Steve Lawson, the free gift of God will cost you. It will cost you total commitment. Speaking to non-believers, in order to be saved, he says, “Have you taken up your cross, have you submitted to the Lordship of Christ, have you come to the end of yourself?” He says Jesus won’t do anything until you’ve come to the end of yourself. But is that the gospel that you see preached in the scriptures? Did Paul walk around telling men that he has a free gift for them that they will have to purchase with their actions, or by coming to the end of themselves and picking up their cross? (Again, I’m not talking about the lifestyle one should have after becoming a believer, as a result of true faith; I’m talking about what is required for one to be saved.) No, this is not the gospel of the Bible. The gospel in the Bible is a message about the person and work of Jesus Christ to atone for our sins. It is a message that, if anyone believes, they will be saved by God on account of their faith. Lordship Salvation teaches that you must have faith AND, faith AND, faith AND… You must forsake, commit, fully surrender, etc., AND believe the gospel to be saved. It places unbiblical emphasis on what you must do and focuses less on what Christ has done, when in fact the gospel is about what Christ has done, which is something we receive by faith and are saved.
I want to quote a few men who oppose Lordship Salvation to help show the error of this theology. Most of these quotes come from a book I recently read called “In Defense of the Gospel,” by Lou Martuneac. While I don’t agree with everything he says in his book, nor everything from every author he quotes below; I think, for the most part, he accurately shows the errors in both the Lordship Salvation and Free Grace positions. Here are some quotes that help expose the error of Lordship Salvation:
RON SHEA
“In this view, eternal salvation is not dependent on the performance of a work, but only the promise of future works. In the minds of those determined to adhere to salvation by works, this distinction supposedly allows the works of the law to be somehow added to the equation of salvation without annulling the doctrine of grace. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans would disagree. ‘For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is of none effect.’ The …expression ‘saving repentance’ is nothing more than a specific form or expression of Bilateral Contract Salvation… ‘a promise for a promise.’ The lost sinner ‘promises’ future obedience in exchange for God’s ‘promise’ of eternal life. This errant understanding of the term ‘repentance’ is the most common and pervasive form of ‘Lordship Salvation’ taught within Christendom throughout the world.” (Ron Shea, Repentance and Salvation in Scripture, Confusion Over Repentance, p.3)
J. VERNON MAGEE
(Jesus) is not putting down a condition of salvation but stating the position of those who are saved. Lordship advocates, however, consider Luke 9:23-24 an evangelistic passage meant for the unsaved. Lordship advocates believe “take up his cross daily” is a condition that must be committed to for the reception of salvation. If this is a salvation invitation, the sinner is being asked to be willing to die for Jesus in order to be saved. “If this characterizes saving faith and is made a condition for salvation, as Lordship proponents insist, one must decide to place faith in Jesus as Savior and Lord through surrender everyday without fail. Such an expectation is not found elsewhere in the Bible and makes both salvation and assurance impossible. (In Defense of the Gospel, page 87)
LOU MARTUNEAC
Conditioning salvation upon man’s “unconditional surrender,” his commitment to or promises of obedience, is not the gospel. This is the point upon which some who reject Lordship Salvation consider it the first cousin of Roman Catholicism’s sacramental works salvation. When repentance is defined as “turning from sin” its basic nature is changed from what occurs in the heart and mind to an action. A commitment to certain behavior expected of a Christian turns the gospel of grace on its head. Salvation then is no longer “the gift of God” but instead a works based message that frustrates grace (Eph. 2:8-9, Gal 2:21) (page 145, In Defense of the Gospel)
To them (Lordship advocates), the kind of faith that “does not save” is any faith that does not meet their Lordship definition of saving faith. (page 152, In Defense of the Gospel)
Lordship Salvation, according to John MacArthur’s definition of saving faith, is a barter system (page 155, In Defense of the Gospel)
Those who teach Lordship Salvation frontload faith with commitments to do the good works (Eph. 2:10)… (Page 167, In Defense of the Gospel)
Does the Lord call on the lost for a wholehearted commitment to obedient Christian living before He grants the gift of eternal life? (page 257, In Defense of the Gospel)
As Lou accurately says, Lordship salvation frontloads faith with a commitment to do good works. It becomes a barter system in which the non-believer commits to forsake all their sins, commits to carry their cross and die daily, and commits to fully surrender and to have complete obedience in order to be saved. The gospel of Jesus Christ is no longer the free gift that God offers but is a costly gift that the unconverted sinner is unable to purchase. What sinner can commit to do things that are possible only by having the Spirit of God dwell in them? When people preach a Lordship Salvation gospel, they are not preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ; they are preaching a different gospel that frustrates the grace of God.
FREE GRACE
On the other side of the spectrum, you have men like Charles Ryrie, Zane Hodges, and ministries like Grace Evangelical Society that promote what is called “Free Grace.” This position arose out of a need to address the false gospel being promoted by Lordship Salvation advocates. They understand that salvation is a free gift of God and does not require the unconverted to commit to promise or do certain works in order to be saved. The lost are saved by believing the message of Jesus Christ and putting their faith in him for salvation (John 1:12). Yet some in the free grace camp have also gone into an extreme that makes their gospel false as well. They rightly say that a believer can be saved with faith, but they erroneously say that once a person is a believer they can be so their entire life even if they show absolutely zero fruit. So in essence, they say a person can believe the facts about Jesus Christ and then live however they want to. The so called believer can continue living a habitual life of fornication, lying, stealing, etc. (name your sin) until they die and still be saved. It’s a false and powerless gospel that doesn’t have to actually produce good fruit and godliness in the lives of those who “believe.”
Lordship Salvation frontloads the gospel with works while Free Grace strips the gospel of its power. They are both wrong, and neither represents the gospel of God and Jesus Christ.
WHAT IS THE GOSPEL?
Since we are saved by our faith/belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ, it would be good to define the gospel of Jesus Christ. You can find many different answers to explain exactly what the gospel is, but Paul defines it best, in its most basic and simplest form, in 1 Cor. 15:
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (1Co 15:1-4)
Simply put, the gospel is the message that was prophesied in the scriptures and came to pass, about the death of Christ for our sins, about his burial, and his resurrection from the dead. It is a message about what God has done to redeem and save all who will repent and believe in Jesus Christ. It is not a message about how we must change our lives or commit to any works to be saved. It is a message about what God has done for us in the death and resurrection of Christ from the dead for our salvation. Beginning in Genesis chapter 3, God began prophesying of a savior that would come and save us from our sins. In God’s perfect timing, just as he had prophesied, Christ Jesus came into the world to lay his life down for us. The sinless Son of God became our substitute and satisfied the wrath of God for our sins. He became a curse for us when he bore our sins in his body on the cross. As the saying goes, “We owed a debt we could not pay, and He paid a debt He did not owe.” After Christ had made satisfactory payment for our sins, he died and was buried. Three days later, God raised Jesus Christ from the dead, giving proof to all that the sacrifice Jesus had made was acceptable to God. Jesus was declared to be the son of God with power by his resurrection from the dead (Romans 1:4). His mission was victorious and he defeated death and hell. Our salvation, and the power to live a new life free from the bondage of sin, was made available to us through the work of Jesus Christ on our behalf. God has done everything needed to provide salvation for anyone who will believe (trust) in Jesus Christ for their salvation. There is nothing man can do to be saved apart from repentance toward God and faith in Jesus Christ. There is nothing man can add to the work of Jesus Christ to make him acceptable to God. No commitment, no promising, no forsaking of anything adds to the work of Christ and makes anyone acceptable to God. Only by putting one’s faith in Jesus Christ and in what he has done can a man be saved from the bondage of sin, from eternal damnation, and receive the gift of eternal life.
Being saved really is as simple as Jesus said it would be. In John chapter three, Jesus speaks to a man named Nicodemus. He tells Nicodemus that a man must be born again in order to see/enter into the kingdom of God. He then proceeds to tell Nicodemus how a man may be born again. Jesus says:
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:14-16)
If you read Numbers chapter 21, you’ll read the account of when the Israelites sinned against God by complaining to Moses about their living conditions in the desert.
And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. (Num. 21:5-9)
Because of their sinful complaints that demonstrated their unbelief in God, God sent poisonous snakes into their camp. These poisonous snakes were biting the Israelites, and many of them were dying. The people realized their sin against God and asked Moses to pray to God so that he would take the snakes away. It was then that God told Moses to make a brass snake and put it on a pole. If anyone one was bitten by a poisonous snake, they could look at the snake on the pole and they would live. They would be healed from the deadly poison that was in their body. In essence, they would be saved. There was no work to be performed; no commitment needed to be made. They simply acknowledged that they had sinned and believed in the provision that God had provided. These Israelites had repented (changed their mind about their sin and about God) and put their faith in God’s provision. Their salvation was received by faith and required no bartering on the part of the Israelites. Their salvation was a free gift from God received by faith.
This event in Israel’s history was a picture of the salvation that God would bring through Jesus Christ. Man has sinned against God and is under a curse. God has provided salvation by making Jesus a curse for us. Like the cursed snake, Jesus became a curse for us when he bore our sins in his body and was crucified “on the tree.” The Israelites were saved simply by acknowledging their sin and God’s righteousness (repenting) and by putting their faith in what God had said by looking to the cursed snake on the pole. The same is true today. When a sinner repents (changes their mind and agrees with God) and puts their faith in God’s provision, the death of Jesus Christ for their sins, that man is saved. Salvation is a free gift from God. It is not received by a commitment to do future good works. It is not purchased by the sinner. It is the free gift of God. This is what Jesus was telling Nicodemus. He was pointing out to Nicodemus the manner in which he would die, that he would become a curse, and that those who have faith and believe in Christ, like the Israelites who looked to God’s provision, would be saved.
God himself, in the New Testament, frequently calls the salvation he gives a “gift” and a “free gift.”
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. (John 4:10)
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. (Rom. 5:15-17)
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom. 6:23)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Eph. 2:8)
It is quite clear that salvation is a free gift from God that is not purchased by any promise to do something for God. There is nothing we can do or promise that makes us acceptable to God. We are saved by receiving/believing what God has done for us in Jesus Christ.
WHAT ABOUT REPENTANCE?
Repentance is most definitely part of the gospel. In fact, when Paul was speaking to the elders in Ephesus, he said:
And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:20-21)
Paul said that he had preached to both Jews and Greeks “repentance towards God, and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ.” When Paul preached repentance, he did not preach “stop sinning” or to “forsake all your sin” or tell them they “must meet all the conditions of discipleship.” Paul preached the gospel that he declared in 1 Corinthians 15. He preached the message about the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead for our salvation, as the scriptures had foretold. Paul sought to preach the truth about God and the person of Jesus Christ so that those he preached to might “think differently” and “have their mind changed” by the Spirit of God towards the truth. When you see Paul preaching in the Jewish synagogues, he is reasoning with the Jews from the scriptures so they will change their minds about the truth of the Messiah. Paul, by his reasoning and by the Spirit of God, is trying to change the minds of his listeners, which would bring them to true repentance towards God.
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, (Acts 17:1-2)
And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. (Acts 18:4)
And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews. (Acts 18:19)
And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee. (Acts 24:25)
Paul reasoned with the Jews and Gentile converts to Judaism in the synagogue about the truth of Jesus Christ and the need for the forgiveness of their sins. Again, Paul, by the word of God and the Spirit of God, was seeking to change their minds concerning the truth of Jesus Christ. He was seeking to bring them to repentance. Once someone is convinced of the truth, they can acknowledge their sin and God’s righteousness and place their faith in Jesus Christ. True repentance and faith are always linked together. But repentance, as it relates to the gospel and being saved, is not “forsaking ones sins” or “forsaking all sin” or even “fully submitting to the Lordship of Christ” (as MacArthur says). It is to think differently and correctly regarding the truth about God, Jesus Christ, man, and our sin.
THE LORDSHIP OF JESUS CHRIST
So what does the scripture mean when it uses phrases like the “Lord” Jesus Christ? Of course, Jesus certainly deserves the title of Lord, because that’s exactly what he is. Here are two verses that specifically use the title of Lord when referring to Jesus in regards to believing unto salvation.
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Act 16:31)
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Rom 10:9-10)
So the question is, does the calling of Jesus Lord in these verses mean that one must understand all the implication of what it means to completely follow Jesus as Lord? Must one fully come to the understanding, as John MacArthur says, that Lordship denotes implicit obedience and a full surrender to Jesus Christ? That nothing less than this qualifies as saving faith? Must a non-believer make an upfront commitment to completely obey every aspect of Christian living? OR, when Lord is used, is it a title of Christ that denotes his supreme authority? Biblically, the word Lord denotes authority. It is a title used of Christ, but it is a title that is also used of men (Gen 18:12, 1 Peter 3:6). In its relation to Christ it denotes his supreme authority. God has made Christ ruler over all. He is both the Christ (anointed one) and Lord (the supreme ruler) as this verse says:
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. (Act 2:36)
When the scriptures use the term Lord in relation to Christ, it is speaking of his position as the supreme authority in God’s kingdom, and specifically as God’s Son. Albert Barnes says,
Here it means clearly that God had exalted him to be the king so long expected; and that he had given him dominion in the heavens, or, as we should say, made him ruler of all things.
By calling Jesus Lord in these verses, it is not saying that one must understand every implication of what it means to call Jesus Lord. Language like that is not used in the scriptures. A person must believe in the Lord Jesus, the Son of God, who died for our sins, was buried, and raised from the dead (John 20:31). It is their faith in Christ and his work that saves them. While the unconverted will call Jesus “Lord”, and “call on the name of the Lord”, most do not understand the full implication of what it means (it’s not even a common word in our vocabulary today). Depending on the work of God in a person at their conversion, and their knowledge of biblical truth, people will have different depths of understanding about what it means to follow Jesus as Lord. Some have more of an understanding and some people have less of an understanding. But people are not saved based on the depth of their understanding about what it means to follow Jesus as Lord. They are saved by believing the gospel. Believers learn what it means to follow Jesus as Lord as they read the scriptures and grow in the knowledge and grace of God.
Here’s what John Piper has correctly said on submitting to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, which directly conflicts with what MacArthur and Lawson have said:
Something may be real even when we don’t understand it fully or even use the right language to describe it. For example, is a person not ‘born again’ just because he has never heard the term ‘born again’ and does not relate to Jesus in those terms but only in terms of faith and forgiveness and atonement? No. A person is just as born again if he believes in Jesus, even if he has never heard of the word ‘regeneration’ or the term ‘born again.’ Many have been born again and saved through gospel tracts which say nothing about the term ‘rebirth.’ … [N]one of us yet understands the full implications of the lordship of Christ on our lives. I am struggling every day to know what the Lord is requiring of me in specific choices among good options. I am learning every day the extent of his lordly control of the world and his mysterious ways of fulfilling his promises as Lord of my life and my church. Submitting to the lordship of Christ is a lifelong activity. It must be renewed every day in many acts of trust and obedience. Submission to Christ’s lordship is not merely a once-for-all experience.” Our submission to Christ is imperfect and progressive.
Due in part to some unhelpful rhetoric by proponents of lordship salvation, some have objected that it places sanctification before salvation. If people are to give up/turn from all of their sins before they are saved, then, in essence, they are to become sanctified before they are saved. This is something that no Christian has achieved in this life—not even Paul could claim such an achievement at the end of his life (Phil. 3:12)
Piper rightly says that believers grow in their understanding of what it means to submit to the Lordship of Christ as they grow in their relationship with Christ.
Christ having the title of Lord does imply that we are to obey him. The obedience an unbeliever must have is to obey God in regards to repenting and believing the gospel of Jesus Christ. They must turn to Christ who is the Lord. Yet they do not have to fully understand every implication of Christ’s Lordship in their lives in order to be saved. Let me give you an example. When I was saved, I simply believed that Jesus died for my sins and I asked him to save me. I did not know what it meant to fully surrender my entire life to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. I just knew that Jesus was God’s Son and that I needed to be forgiven. I broke down under the realization of God’s love and I put my faith in Christ. He saved me and put his Spirit inside me. When I received the new birth, I had a greater understanding that Christ Jesus was Lord (God in the flesh, God’ Son, Divine). There were some things that God helped me to immediately see that were sins. By his grace I was delivered from them and was able to put them away. However, even as a new believer, for a period of time, I lived in fornication with my girlfriend. I wasn’t aware that this was wrong and no one told me. However, as I grew in grace and read the scripture, my girlfriend (now my wife) and I both realized that what we were doing was wrong. We then decided to move back home with our parents. We had believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to save us, and now, as we were growing in our knowledge of him, he was showing us what it meant to follow him as Lord. I did not begin to understand all the implications of “Lordship” until I was born again and until I started to read the word of God. Fully submitting to the Lordship of Christ (as it relates to changing our lifestyle) is the result of being born again. It is progressive and ever growing as we follow the Lord. Again, when one is born again, they will understand that Jesus is God’s Son, that he is the Lord (supreme ruler/authority), one to be submitted to; but they will not fully understand the implications of Lordship until they belong to the Lord and have the Spirit of God in them. When a man has been born again, they WILL want to follow Jesus as Lord and bring every area of their life in submission to him, even if they stumble at times. It will be the result of salvation and not a pre-requisite for salvation.
So I ask the questions again, how can a non-believer forsake all their sin when they are in bondage to sin? How can a non-believer completely submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in all areas before they are saved, and as a requirement to be saved? Is it the unbeliever’s promise to do these things that saves them? Or is it genuine faith in what God has done through the Lord Jesus Christ to save us?
WHAT IF AN UNBELIEVER KNOWS, BUT WONT?
What if an unbeliever knows that certain things they do are sin and they are simply unwilling to give them up, but they want Jesus to save them? Can they be saved? No, they cannot. They have not repented. They have not change their mind and come to think rightly and agree with God. In the bible the rich young ruler wanted eternal life but was not able to receive it. Christ pointed out his sin but the young ruler was unwilling to turn this area of his life over to the Lord. Christ gave this man the right knowledge about the idolatry in his heart, but the man was unwilling to repent and agree with God and turn this known, sinful area, over to the Lord. He might have agreed with Jesus that his greed was sin, but he did not have true repentance that proves itself with fruit following. However, even if the rich young ruler had turned from his greed and received eternal life by putting his faith in Jesus; there would be continual instances in which he would have to learn to submit to the Lordship of Christ as he grew in grace. Just like we all do.
Now if an unbeliever recognizes their bondage to certain sins, but they feel powerless to give them up, they can come to Christ and be saved; that is, they are not desiring to hold on to them, they are asking Christ to free them from their sin. They have faith in Christ but know they are in bondage. If an unconverted man is in bondage to lust or drugs, he doesn’t have to forsake them to be saved. He can confess his bondage and inability that he recognizes he has, and put his faith in Christ asking God to do in him what he cannot do. If he believes the gospel and repents (in heart and mind) Christ will receive him and give him the power to do what he cannot in himself. Christ helps those who can’t help themselves. (Matt. 11:28-30, John 8:34-36)
MAKING SANCTIFICATION A PREREQUISITE FOR SALVATION
The bottom line with the Lordship Salvation gospel is that it makes the evidence of salvation, the sanctification of a believer, a requirement for salvation. It puts the cart before the horse. By defining repentance as a change in lifestyle, it requires this change of lifestyle, or the promise of changing one’s lifestyle, as a pre-requisite for salvation. Salvation no longer becomes a gift but is something that must be purchased by changings one’s ways or by promising to do so in the future. Salvation becomes a barter system in which man promises to God to do something, instead of simply believing and receiving what God has done for us in Christ.
When you falsely preach to a man that he must forsake all his sins and believe in Jesus Christ, you are requiring a man to do what he can’t do. You are putting the cart before the horse. This is exactly what Lordship Salvation does. It requires the FRUIT OF REPENTACE before the repentance.
THE RIGHT ORDER
Look at what John the Baptist says about repentance:
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. (Mat. 3:7-8)
John is telling these Pharisees and Sadducees that if they have repented they should bear/produce fruit that shows they have repented. The repentance (change of mind and heart) comes first, and the fruit (the change of lifestyle) comes second.
The apostle Paul says the same thing:
but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance. (Acts 26:20)
Paul told the Gentiles to repent (change their mind) and turn (have faith) to God AND THEN show forth their repentance with their works, with their changed lifestyle. Unlike the Lordship Salvation advocates, Paul keeps everything in the right order. He does not require the unconverted to do or commit to do something they can’t. He does not require the unconverted to do or commit to do something in exchange for salvation. Paul preaches salvation as a free gift to those who will believe.
Paul again sums up our salvation and the order of things in the epistle to Titus:
who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. (Titus 2:14)
Jesus first saves us from our sins, and then we do works that show our faith. Sanctification follows salvation; it does not come before.
A FEW EXAMPLES FROM ACTS
As I mentioned above, Paul and the apostles kept things in the right order. They preached Jesus Christ and him crucified. They preached about a man that was resurrected from the dead, proving that he was approved by God to be the judge of the living and the dead. They preached that if any man would repent and put their faith in Jesus, God would forgive his sins and give him eternal life. Paul and the other apostles did not tell men that they must forsake all theirs sins, meet all the conditions of a disciple to be saved, or commit to full surrender and implicit obedience AS a conditon or prequiste to receiving salvation.
Ethiopian Eunuch:
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. (Acts 8:35-38)
In this passage, the Eunuch is reading from Isaiah 53. Philip stays in this passage and preaches Christ to the Eunuch. When the Eunuch asks if he can be baptized, Peter doesn’t say, “Do you commit to carry your cross daily, do you commit to forsake all your sins, do you commit to meet all the conditions of discipleship from this day forward?” No, Philip does not ask him to do what is expected of those who are saved. Peter tells the man, “If you believe in Jesus Christ with all your heart, you can be baptized.” So he is telling the Eunuch that if he has faith in Jesus Christ, he can then do what believers do: be baptized. Peter is telling him that his belief saves him and that he can be baptized, showing his genuine faith and repentance.
Cornelius:
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (Acts 10:43-44)
Peter preaches the truth about Jesus Christ to Cornelius and his household. He concludes by telling them that whoever believes in Jesus will have their sins forgiven. It is evident that they believed, as the Holy Spirit was given to them. Again, saved by faith.
The Jailer:
And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one’s bands were loosed. And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:26-31)
Here is the clearest explanation to the question, “What must I (or any man) do to be saved?” This jailer must have come under some conviction regarding the truth of Christ and the gospel. He must have known why Paul was in prison and that these men were preaching that people needed to be saved through Jesus. So after this miraculous event, the jailer asks what he must do to be saved. Notice Paul doesn’t saying anything that the Lordship Salvation advocates say. He simply tells him to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and he will be saved. He tells him to look to Christ, just like Jesus says to do in John 3 when talking about the snake on the pole. He didn’t have to forsake all known sin to be saved or commit to do future works; he simply had to put his faith in Jesus Christ. His faith in Jesus Christ, like all believers’ faith in Jesus Christ, then gave him the power to forsake his sins and to truly live for Jesus.
WHY LORDSHIP SALVATION(ISTS) GET IT BACKWARDS
So the question is why do those who preach a Lordship Salvation gospel get it backwards? Why do they require of the unconverted what they cannot do? Why do they lay on the unconverted conditions of discipleship that are directed towards believers? There are probably many answers to these questions, but I think, from my own experience and from observing the preaching of others, that they do it in an effort to prevent false conversions. We live in a day in which everyone says they are a Christian, regardless of the lifestyle they are living. Many churches, like many of those in the Free Grace camp, teach a false gospel that says one can believe in Jesus and not show any fruit, a powerless, worthless gospel. It seems in an effort to counter this doctrine that produces many false converts, people have swung to the other side of the spectrum and now require the unconverted to do, and commit to do, things that they cannot do apart from the indwelling power of God’s Spirit. They add to the gospel of Jesus Christ in an effort to keep people from becoming a false convert. In doing so, they pervert the true gospel of God’s grace and the free gift of salvation in Jesus Christ. They do this largely because of their false understanding of repentance. They confuse repentance with the fruit of repentance. By doing so, they take away the free gift of God and make the narrow gate even narrower than Jesus made it. In their zeal to keep from producing false converts, they, most likely unintentionally, make the gospel more about what the sinner must do in changing their actions and committing to change their actions, instead of simply receiving and believing what Jesus Christ has done for them.
AGAIN, WHAT THE ORDER SHOULD BE
Simple. We should preach the gospel like the apostle Paul, like the apostle Peter, etc. They presented the truth about Jesus Christ, reasoned with men from the scriptures, and called men to repent and put their faith in Jesus Christ to receive the free gift of God. They didn’t call the lost to forsake everything to be saved, nor did they tell them to stop sinning, to forsake all their sins, or to meet the conditions of discipleship to be saved. They simply told people the truth about Jesus Christ and implored men to repent and believe in Jesus. They knew that genuine fruit would follow those who believe, that the work of sanctification would be evident in the lives of those who had real faith. This passage shows the correct order:
Also many of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices. And a number of those who had practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted the value of them and found it came to fifty thousand pieces of silver. (Acts 19:18-19)
The people became believers in Jesus Christ. They simply received the message about what God had done for them in Jesus Christ. They had a faith in Jesus. Their genuine faith led them to confess their witchcraft and to burn their pagan books. They did not have to do these things to be saved; they did these things because they were saved. Lordship Salvation reverses the order and requires men to do these works in order to be saved, instead of them being the fruit of genuine conversion.
WHAT GOSPEL ARE YOU PREACHING?
Are you telling men that they must forsake all their sins, fully submit to the Lordship of Christ (even though they don’t understand all the implications of what that means), or meet all the conditions of discipleship before they can be saved? Are you making salvation difficult and costly, demanding a price that the unconverted cannot pay? Are you requiring the lost to do what only the saved can do, by the Spirit and power of God? Are you making the narrow gate narrower than Jesus made it? Are you laying burdens on men that neither you nor any other believer could do when you were unconverted? In your zeal to prevent false conversions, are you preaching a gospel that adds to faith in Christ? OR are you preaching the free gift of God that is received by faith through and in Jesus Christ? Are you preaching the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins, which is received by faith alone? It makes a difference. As I said before, “The gospel is a message to be received, not meritoriously achieved.” The true preaching of the gospel should strip a man down and show him that there is nothing he can do to save himself. No good works or commitment to do good works will save him. God has already done everything needed for the salvation of anyone who will BELIEVE. Salvation is a free gift to be received. Don’t be so worried about making false converts that you end up preaching a gospel that is no gospel at all. Preach the gospel as God’s free gift to be received by faith, and God will do the rest.
I’ll end by leaving you with an account of the conversion of Charles Spurgeon, a man who “looked” to Christ and was saved.
It is without doubt the best known conversion in the history of the Church. It was on a wintry Sunday, January 6 1850, his school being temporarily closed because of an outbreak of fever, that the 15 year-old Spurgeon found himself in Colchester and on his way to the local Congregational Chapel. But the snow and sleet intensified so that he turned down a side lane called Artillery Street and came to the Primitive Methodist Church. He was thus able incidentally to continue in his determination to visit every congregation in Colchester to find someone who would tell him where he might find relief from the condemnation of the law. His mother had also talked with him positively about this congregation. It is any port in a storm, and so the teenager entered this building for the first time to attend the morning service. There were no more than a dozen or fifteen people present: even the minister had failed to arrive because of the weather. It was the wrong church, the wrong congregation, the wrong weather and the wrong preacher. Into the pulpit climbed a thin-looking man, a shoemaker or tailor, Spurgeon was never to know anything about him. He announced his text as Isaiah 45:22, ‘Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God and there is none else.’
Spurgeon says, “He had not much to say, thank God, for that compelled him to keep on repeating his text, and there was nothing needed – by me, at any rate – except his text. I remember how he said, ‘My dear friends, this is a very simple text indeed. It says, ‘Look.’ Now lookin’ don’t take a deal of pain. It ain’t liftin’ your foot or your finger; it is just ‘Look!.’ Well, a man needn’t go to college to learn to look. You may be the biggest fool, and yet you can look… A child can look. One who is almost an idiot can look. However weak, or however poor a man may be, he can look. And if he looks the promise is that he shall live.’ He went on in his broad Essex accent, ‘Many on ye are lookin’ to yourselves. But it’s no use lookin’ there. You’ll never find any comfort in yourselves. Some say look to God, the Father. No, look to Him by-and-by. It is Christ that speaks. I am in the garden in an agony, pouring out my soul unto death; I am on the tree, dying for sinners; look unto Me! I rise again. Look unto me! I ascend into heaven! Look unto me. I am sitting at the Father’s right hand. O poor sinner look unto me! Look unto me! Some of ye say, “We must wait for the Spirit’s workin”‘. You have no business with that just now. Look to Christ. The text says, “Look unto Me”.’
The preacher managed to spin that out for ten minutes and then, running out of anything fresh to say, looked at his congregation and picked on Spurgeon, “Young man, you look very miserable,” he said. “Well,” said Spurgeon, “I did look miserable, but I had not been accustomed to have remarks made from the pulpit about my personal appearance before. However, it was a good blow, struck right home.” The preacher went on, “and you always will be miserable – miserable in life and miserable in death – if you don’t obey my text; but if you obey now, this moment, you will be saved.” And then he shouted at the top of his voice as I think only a Primitive Methodist can, “Young man, look to Jesus Christ. Look! Look! Look! You have nothing to do but to look and live!” And I did look.”
“I saw at once the way of salvation. I know not what else he said – I did not take much notice of it – I was so possessed with that one thought. Like as when the brazen serpent was lifted up, the people only looked and were healed, so it was with me. I had been waiting to do fifty things, but when I heard that word, ‘Look!’ what a charming word it seemed to me.
“Oh I could have looked until I could almost have looked my eyes away. There and then the cloud was gone, the darkness had rolled away, and that moment I saw the sun; and I could have risen that instant, and sung with the most enthusiastic of them, of the precious blood of Christ, and the simple faith which alone looks to him. O that somebody had told me this before, ‘Trust Christ, and you shall be saved.’”
Recounting his conversion another time he says:
“Now let me tell the story. It was on a day, never to be forgotten, when I first understood that salvation was in and through Another, that my salvation could not be of myself, but must be through One better and stronger than I. And I heard, and oh, what music it was! – that the Son of God had taken upon himself our human nature, and had, by his life and death, wrought out a perfect salvation, finished from top to bottom, which he was ready to give to every soul that was willing to have it and that salvation was all of grace from top to bottom, which he was ready to give to every soul that was willing to have it, and that salvation was all of grace from first to last, the free gift of God through his blessed Son, Jesus Christ.
“Then I had this vision – not a vision to my eyes, but to my heart. I saw what a Saviour Christ was, divine as well as human. I saw what sufferings were his, what a righteousness his was. Now I can never tell you how it was, but I no sooner saw whom I was to believe than I also did believe in one moment. I did take him as my Saviour. To my own humiliation, I must confess that I did it because I could not help it; I was shut up to it. That law-work, of which I told you, had hammered me into such a condition that, if there had been fifty other saviours, I could not have thought of them, I was driven to this One” (MTP, 1895, p.101-104).
AMEN
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***By mentioning men like John MacArthur and Steve Lawson, I am in no way implying that they are not believers. I simply believe that by their adding works to faith in Jesus Christ, they are not preaching the gospel as we see it preached in the scriptures. I’m sure the Lord uses these men in many ways, even though they are in error in this regard. I know the Lord has used me and worked in me even when I have believed or preached things that turned out to be false. The Lord is gracious and patient and loving with his people.
Hi Scott,
You wrote: “So in essence, they say a person can believe the facts about Jesus Christ and then live however they want to. The so called believer can continue living a habitual life of fornication, lying, stealing, etc. (name your sin) until they die and still be saved. It’s a false and powerless gospel that doesn’t have to actually produce good fruit and godliness in the lives of those who “believe.”
That’s certainly a horrible twisting of the gospel of grace! (I identify most closely with the Free Grace side of things…)
What writers have you read who have made that assertion? I’m curious because this issue of the Free Grace folks “stripping the gospel of its power” has become the standard objection thrown out by the Lordship folks–but I haven’t found any of the FG leaders (such as Ryrie, Hodges, Wilkin, Bing, Radmacher, etc.) having anything to do with that defective understanding, and have noted they go to great lengths to distance themselves for it.
But on the same note, I’ve yet to read or hear a Lordship person say, “Salvation can only be found in faith AND works!”, although that’s what the FB folks routinely accuse them of believing!
I think that both sides routinely present their “opponent’s” views in the most extreme, unflattering light, and in a way that their proponents would never agree to! I appreciate your comments on this issue!
Blessings, Ken
Ken
December 28, 2011 at 1:03 am
Hi Ken,
Thanks for your comment. As far as the Free Grace camp, I made sure to mention that there are division within the camp. Not everyone holds to the views that Zane Hodges promoted. Call it Free Grace or not though, there are countless churches that preach that once someone has made a profession of faith, they are saved. Even if someone supposedly backslides the rest of the life into willful sin (someone totally void of love, or thougt of God), they will hold on to the “fact” that the person at one time or another “professed Christ”. Regarding the Lordship salvation camp, of course no one is ever going to say that they believe in faith PLUS something else. They won’t say those words directly but they will make statements that in reality say the same thing. John MacArthur says, “Anyone who wants to come after Jesus into the Kingdom of God—anyone who wants to be a Christian—has to face three commands: 1) deny himself, 2) take up his cross daily, and 3) follow him.” (Hard to Believe, p. 6.)”. It’s not just MacArthur either, I’ve heard other believers say things like this as well (I’ve been guilty of it in the past too). So let’s look at John MacArthur’s statement. For someone to “become” a Christian they must “first” settle the matter that they will deny themselves, take up their cross daily, and follow Jesus. He says this is “required” for anyone who wants to be a Christian. The the gospel he is preaching is not one that requires faith alone in who Christ is and what he has done. He is requiring a person to commit upfront that they will meet the conditions of discipleship. It is their up front commitment plus their faith that saves them. If this doctrine was true, then the conditions of discipleship would have to be mentioned with every gospel presentation for people to be able to make this commitment. If these conditions are requirements, and they are not mentioned, then if someone believed in Jesus, they would have no assurance that these people were true converts if they hadn’t “faced these three commands”, as MacArthur says. So even though they don’t directly say they believe in faith PLUS, it’s evident from comments like this that they do.
Hope that clarifies what I was saying.
Sean Scott
December 28, 2011 at 5:34 am
Hey Sean
I’m a realy confused about what your saying. How are distingushing John MacArthurs statment to be mistreating Luke 9:23?
Are your saying that it’ sinaproporate to present stuff like Luke 14:25-33 to someone who is not already born again. Is it that it somehow over complicate the simplicity of the gospel or that it would be adding works to salvation? I agree that people are saved without articulating any of these things and that its not nessacary to give some lengthy discourse or else. But it almost sounds like you disagree with these passages entirely, could you clarify how I’ve misunderstood you?
Thanks
Adam
Adam
December 31, 2011 at 10:24 pm
Hi Adam,
It’s good to hear from you. And no, I’m not saying what you think I’m saying. Sorry if I wasn’t clear. I would never say that it’s inappropriate to mention any portion of scripture to anyone, unconverted or not. Everything, from cover to cover, is God’s word. And I’m certainly not saying that it’s inappropriate to mention specific discipleship verses such as those in Luke 9, Luke 14, Mark 8, Matt 10 etc. What I am saying is, is that it’s not someones up front knowledge of and commitment to these things that saves a man. In fact Jesus himself had men, called disciples, who turned away from him; men who were not born again (John 6). Disciples, yet not saved. Some might say that this happened “pre-cross” and it’s not the same today (that’s for another discussion); but either way, what I’m saying is that it’s not someones up front commitment to the discipleship passages that saves a man. Basically, it boils down to this: What is required of a man for him to receive the NEW BIRTH? Must a man “forsake all his sins” or/and be faced with the three discipleship commands, as MacArthur (and others) say, in order to be a Christian? Must every non-believer be faced with those issues and resolutely make up their mind regarding them before they can receive the New Birth? The obvious answer is no. For people to receive the new birth and be saved they must believe the GOSPEL. Paul defined the gospel, which we are to believe to be saved, in 1 Cor 15:1-4. It is the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, according to the scriptures. That is the gospel one must believe in order to receive the New Birth, and this is exactly what you see being preached all through the book of Acts. If for people to be saved they must first forsake all their sins, and have an understanding of all the conditions of discipleship, and must have agreed to them, then everyone who preached in the book of Acts was a complete failure because they failed to mention the actual requirements for salvation. Of course that wasn’t the case, and we have to assume that those who walked and talked with Jesus understood, better than us, what he meant when he said to go into all the world and preach the gospel.
Let me give you an example that I gave to another brother. Take the missionary David Brainard. If you read his testimony you find out that he had read the bible many times before he was actually converted. Having read the bible as he did, he probably had a fairly good idea of what it meant to follows Jesus as Lord. He was probably well aware of the passages on discipleship as well as all the exhortations in the Epistles that call for us to live our whole live for the Lord and his glory. But there are countless men who do not have this type of knowledge before they are saved. Some people have been soundly saved (received the New Birth) simply because they picked up a gospel tract and read about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and they put their faith in him. They had no knowledge of all that discipleship involves, and probably didn’t until they read through the bible. Yet, in both of these instances the people (David Brainard and people who get born again from tracts or preaching) were saved. They were saved not because of their up front knowledge and acceptance of everything that discipleship demands (or because they forsook all their sins), but they were saved because they put their faith in the Savior and the work he accomplished to atone for their sins.
Now when I say they weren’t saved because of their knowledge of everything discipleship demands, I AM NOT saying that a non-believer could have an understanding those passage, knowing that they are the words of Christ, and willfully reject them and still come to Christ for salvation. If that was the case then the rich young ruler could have rejected Christ command and still have been saved and followed Christ. I tried to make that clear in my post.
My contention, and I believe the bibles contention, with the Lordship salvation doctrine and its advocates is that it requires all who would come to Christ to make up front commitments or promises in exchange for salvation and requires men to have knowledge of the conditions of discipleship and have them settled, in order to receive salvation. That is simply not the case.
To address the last sentence in your comment, I do not disagree with the discipleship passages. I completely agree with the passages in the Gospels and the similar passages in the Epistles. I’m simply addressing what is absolutely required for salvation (to receive the New Birth) and what is not.
I hope that helps, if I still didn’t make it clear please let me know.
Sean Scott
January 1, 2012 at 5:16 am
I have never liked tract thing…. when I speak with people I don’t have scheme in my head what to say… I try to be sensitive … to feel the person and the Spirit…. and to be truthful… I speak core of the Gospel but also application… depending on situation and person… trying to be simple… Gospel must be understandable to sweeper and to scholar…
Nataša
December 28, 2011 at 5:13 am
Hi Natasa,
I think it’s possible to both listen to the Spirit of God AND have tracts if you choose to. I personally like gospel tracts. I can’t tell you how many wonderful conversations I’ve had with people simply because I gave them a gospel tract. Sometimes I give them out at the bus stops in town and talk to people about Christ. I’ve had people that I’ve given tracts to, after they sit down and read the tract, get up and come and find me so they can talk about it. The nice thing about tracts it that it gives people something they can take with them, something with the gospel, and for me, something that has a web address where they can read more. Also, I try to purchase tracts that are pocketable, and I would say that about 90% of the tracts I hand out get put in ones wallet or purse and are not thrown away. So, I like them.
Sean Scott
December 28, 2011 at 7:50 pm
Good thoughts, bro.
Would you agree that heart repentance and believing from the heart are two inseparable sides of the same coin? As each cannot exist apart from the other.
I think one thing you’re pointing out is that heart repentance has to be a step of faith. When a sinner truly repents he has to trust in Jesus for the victory.
A counterfeit to this would be a “works-type repentance”, where a person has come under the law and has decided to try and earn their salvation thru perpetual ‘repentance’.
ian vincent
December 28, 2011 at 5:22 am
Hi Ian,
Yea, I don’t think you can separate true repentance from true faith. In the scriptures, in regards to salvation, sometimes the word repent is used without the word faith/believe (Acts 2:38), and sometimes the word believe is used without the word repent (the gospel of John). Yet just because the word is not mentioned doesn’t mean it’s not there. They are definitely linked together.
Sean Scott
December 28, 2011 at 5:46 am
Thanks bro.
With me, it was a revelation of Jesus, and then i repented, when i saw who He is and heard His call. He melted my heart and caused me to repent.
ian vincent
December 28, 2011 at 9:58 am
First of all, allow me to say what a delight it was for me to read this this morning. Oh, what joy filled my soul! That Jesus Christ, and He ALONE, was glorified by what was written here.
You are absolutely correct in your 2 main assertions: faith precedes fruit; and fruit is evidence of salvation.
Moreover, you explained it beautifully.
I think that the problem is that men are not satisfied with the simplicity of the gospel: and therefore, desire to add to it; and their additions strip it off its power [a little leaven leavens the whole loaf].
I might add that the consistent Pauline example was to rebuke perversions of the gospel message: so, you are in good company in your practice.
What must we do?
Lift up Christ, preaching and teaching BY FAITH with scriptural words and examples, even as Christ spent His life explaining the meaning of God’s commandments and how we are to live for God.
We must speak of man’s sin, God’s righteousness, and the coming judgment, warning men everywhere of the need to repent (John 16:8).
I especially enjoyed the verses you noted on the divine order of God concerning repentance and fruit.
Repentance is faith in Christ’s atoning work alone, as the only means by which men may receive forgiveness of sins: and this faith implicitly acknowledges both personal sin and personal need for salvation.
We see this in the following verse (Acts 20:21): “Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Repentance toward God describes our acknowledgment that we have transgressed the Father’s first commandment [thou shalt have no other gods before me—Exodus 20:3], which is to “love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength,” (Mark 12:30).
Repentance toward God acknowledges the problem of man [our diseased, sinful condition].
Faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ acknowledges that faith in Christ’s atoning work on the cross alone [and nothing else] is the sole remedy for our diseased and sinful condition.
Now, what we most certainly SHOULD tell men is that God will give them power over sin, if they will believe by faith in Jesus Christ. He has that power. He will grant them that power. And they can overcome by that power.
But first, they must believe.
The drawing of the Holy Spirit (John 6:44) grants men the power to choose between life and death [for without His drawing, convicting work, they remain powerless to choose, as they are bound by Satan]: if they choose death, they are condemned—but not for loving wickedness—for rejecting Truth!
All sinners love wickedness [for they are enemies of God in their minds through wicked works—Colossians 1:21]. They can do nothing else, being unregenerate sinners, as you have rightly declared, until they are freed by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, while the sins of lost souls are many, their principal transgression is their rejection of the Way of Truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10).
It’s all about Jesus.
These are most important things to consider, and I am thrilled that you have spent the time to draw other men to understanding concerning them. It always helps me to continually reflect on these things too [we are always growing in understanding, as you say].
P.S. A scriptural tract is nothing more than a biblical excerpt; I love good tracts.
P.P.S. A question for Ian [and Sean]: Ian, I agree with your heart-felt comments about the need to trust Christ for salvation. I have been thinking, of late, of how trust is implicit to faith. Where in the bible is this truth [how trust is implicit to faith] best revealed?
Mark and Vicki Finger
December 28, 2011 at 5:43 pm
Thanks for taking the time to reply, Sean, and for a fair-handed post. The debate between the LS and the FG camps has included some of the nastiest, misinformed, mistranslated dialogue that I’ve heard in church matters–all the time when we all should be sharing the gospel of grace, as we best understand it. I’ve found that a fixation on either of these issues can really stunt a person’s spiritual growth, and, as importantly, can keep them on the side-lines of ministry; directing their passions and communication towards the perceived shortcoming of their fellow believer’s faith, instead of sharing Christ with the lost world around us! How cool, you’re using tracts, and sharing Christ! Thanks for the encouragement, brother! I’d prefer one, die-hard LS witnessing Christian to 10 FG’ers that don’t actively share their faith, and vice versa!
Ken
December 29, 2011 at 1:45 am
PS
I agree that what is often implied when preachers ask people to make Jesus Lord of their life is often a step in the direction of law and not grace.
As has already been said, a sensitivity to the Holy Spirit will lead us into speaking the right word in every situation, as He knows what men need to hear.
In that sense i wouldn’t, for myself, make a law that i don’t ever speak about repentance to the unconverted.
When we are street preaching all kinds of people are likely to hear us, all at very different levels of understanding.
Often, when i share with an individual i’ve found myself not mentioning repentance. Perhaps it’s cos we are waiting for the revelation and conviction to come, as like at Pentecost, when they asked Peter, what should we do to be saved? , meaning, that at that point they believed in Jesus, and then Peter told them they should repent.
ian vincent
December 29, 2011 at 2:05 am
Just to clarify what i was trying to say: Surely, the prmary issue first with an unbeliever is whether or not they will believe and confess that Jesus is the Son of God, and then, after that, if he believes, to yield his life to Jesus.
Unbelief concerning who Jesus is, is THE sin that excludes men from the reconciliation.
If a person will not confess that Jesus is the Son of God, and chooses not to believe, then asking that person to repent of all their sins is premature.
Of course, as has been said, both faith and repentance are inseperable. but there is an order in which God works.
E.g. here in India, is the first issue that hindus should burn their idols, or that they should believe who Jesus is? Which comes first?
ian vincent
December 30, 2011 at 1:22 am
Re: Lou Martenuac
quote: “When repentance is defined as “turning from sin” its basic nature is changed from what occurs in the heart and mind to an action. A commitment to certain behavior expected of a Christian turns the gospel of grace on its head. Salvation then is no longer “the gift of God” but instead a works based message that frustrates grace (Eph. 2:8-9, Gal 2:21) (page 145, In Defense of the Gospel)”
unquote
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.
.
.
Lou is talking about people misunderstanding God’s call to repent.
The command to “turn from our sins”" can be rightly understood as a turning of our heart, or wrongly understood as a call to be justifed by our works and law.
Just cos many misunderstand the words of God it doesnt render them void.
The onus is on us to explain it in a way that less people take it the wrong way, though many will regardless.
ian vincent
December 30, 2011 at 1:37 am
“Unbelief concerning who Jesus is, is THE sin that excludes men from the reconciliation.”
In a nutshell.
Mark and Vicki Finger
December 30, 2011 at 6:34 pm
Telling someone that they have to live a holy life in order to be saved is not grace, but works, and akin to Mormonism.
Such witnessing will lead to increased bondage and self-righteousness, but not salvation.
Only the gospel has power to save (Romans 1:16): we have to preach it as Christ and His apostles preached it, for any deviation from “saved by grace through faith” [in Christ's finished work on the cross] will not profit the lost soul.
Mark and Vicki Finger
December 29, 2011 at 3:08 am
From our standpoint, as witnesses, we simply need to be focused upon the Person of Christ, speaking by faith in Him. Of course, the more scripture we know, the more that the Holy Spirit will use. However, the anointing to witness powerfully comes solely from faith in the work of the cross through the agency of the Holy Spirit.
Mark and Vicki Finger
December 29, 2011 at 3:12 am
Your article began by evaluating Gospel tracts. I am curious why you have never ordered any of ours including The Greatest Gift which is all Scripture and includes repentance, the resurrection and the righteousness needed for entry into heaven (www.pro-gospel.org). Those who desire to be saved need an understanding that they are being saved not only from the punishment of sin but also from the power of sin and ultimately from the presence of sin in glorification. Unfortunately most Gospel presentations only offer salvation from the punishment of sin which is an incomplete Gospel and explains why there are so many tares in the church.
Mike Gendron
December 29, 2011 at 4:10 pm
Hi Mike,
Thanks for your comment and for stopping by. Actually I have been to store on your site, but its been a while. I think the reason that I did not order any was because there wasn’t an option to read the tracts on the site. I’m sure the tracts are probably great, but there’s not a way to read the content without actually ordering them (at least that I’m aware of). I guess I could have just ordered some, but by the time you place an order for a few packs of tracts and pay shipping the cost is going up and you don’t really have an idea what the tracts say. I have though given out your book titled “Preparing Catholics for Eternity”. I thought the book was excellent and especially useful when you’re dealing with die hard Catholics or even “nominal” Catholics who have been raised in the Catholic Church their whole life.
Can I ask you a question about something you said?
Do you really think that those who desire to be saved need/must have an understanding that they are being saved from sin’s power, and ultimately sin’s presence, and that if this is not mentioned that it’s an incomplete gospel? I know that when I preach the gospel (especially when I’m on the streets) I seldom, if ever, mention the fact that one day we will be completely set free from the presence of sin in glorification. Often times, but not all the time, I will mention the fact that as a result of being born again we will have power over sin and be set free from its bondage. I usually mention this when I’m talking to someone who appears to be a false convert, and especially to those who are addicted to drugs, alcohol, etc. But do you really think it’s an incomplete gospel if someone fails to mention this? I don’t see “deliverance from sin” being preached in any of the recorded sermons in the book of Acts. Paul mentions our deliverance from sins bondage in the book of Romans (and other Epistles), but the book of Romans was written and addressed to believer in Jesus Christ.
I know that the resurrection of Christ from the dead most certainly gives us the power to live a new life. However, even when Christs resurrection from the dead is mentioned in preaching in Acts, it’s mentioned as a proof that the gospel is true, as proof of Gods has approved and ordained Christ as Savior and Lord, and proof that God will ultimately judge all men.
Like I said, I’m not saying we’re not to mention the results of the new birth when we preach the gospel; I myself do it all the time. I’m just curious about your statement that says it’s an incomplete gospel if we don’t.
Sean Scott
December 29, 2011 at 7:17 pm
Sean,
In Matthew 1:21 we read Jesus will save His people from their sins. That is the good news of the Gospel, to be saved and set free from the bondage of sin and the devil (2 Tim. 2:23-26) and to be forgiven from the punishment of sin. Why would you want to give only part of the good news?
Mike Gendron
December 29, 2011 at 10:16 pm
Hi Mike,
Ironically, as your comment came through on my phone, I was telling a man on the street about Christ power to deliver him from the bondage of sin; that this is the power of the gospel and the result of the new birth. When I’m able to have a meaningful conversation with someone, individually or when preaching, I almost always speak of the results of faith. I speak of having our sins forgiven and being set free sins power. But I seldom mention final glorification and sins ultimate removal. Since I failed to tell this man about sins ultimate removal when we are glorified together with Christ, did I tell him an incomplete gospel?
Matthew 1:21 does say that Jesus will save his people from their sins. It includes deliverance from sins power as well as deliverance from the guilt and punishment that sin brings.
What I’m specifically questioning is your statement that says if deliverance from sins power and presence is not mentioned, then the gospel presentation was incomplete. If that is the case then Jesus did not give the Good News to Nicodemus in John 3. He failed to mention deliverance from sins power and presence. If that is the case then Peter did not preach the gospel in Acts 2, Acts 4, Acts 5:31; nor did Philip preach the gospel to the Eunuch in Acts 8, or Peter to Cornelius in Acts 10, or Paul in Acts 13. In none of these gospel presentations, by the first apostles and evangelist, was deliverance from sins power or presence mentioned. If these two subjects had to be mentioned, and we know they were not, then these apostles and evangelist are guilty of preaching an incomplete gospel.
Paul defines the gospel for us in 1 Cor 15:
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you–unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
(1Co 15:1-4)
He failed to mention deliverance from sins power and presence. Is Paul giving us another incomplete gospel? I think Paul’s explaining what the gospel is.
So again, I’m not saying we shouldn’t mention deliverance from sins power or presence. I think the more we can teach people the better. As I said, most of the time when I have meaningful conversations I do speak of the fruit of faith; deliverance from sins power. However, I would not say that because someone fails to mention deliverance from sins power and presence that they are presenting an incomplete gospel. If that is the case, then every gospel presentation in the New Testament is incomplete.
Sean Scott
December 30, 2011 at 12:23 am
Sean, As you know the great commission is to make disciples and we do this by teaching people the Word of Christ. We never know how much of God’s Word must be presented before God brings forth life. Jesus and the apostles shared the good news in different ways depending on the circumstances. When we tell people that Jesus saves people from their sins, we share more and more what this means as time permits and as the person’s interest is maintained. There is so much to share including reconciliation, redemption, deliverance, justification, the new birth, forgiveness, etc. God is the one who uses the imperishable seed of His Word to bring forth life. I keep sowing until the new birth takes place or people don’t want to hear anymore. Hope this helps.
Mike Gendron
December 30, 2011 at 4:19 pm
Ian,
Do you think it dishonors the name of Jesus to misrepresent a brother in Christ by spreading lies on a blog? All of our newsletter are free to download and we have made many of our audio and video messages available for free. Our only constraint to making more of them available is time for our web master to make it happen. For 20 years we have never asked for donations or solicited support to sustain the ministry God has entrusted to us. Perhaps you know of a better way for us to maintain the ministry and trust God for His provision. Please let me know.
Mike Gendron
Mike Gendron
December 31, 2011 at 2:23 pm
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A discussion on ‘Lordship salvation’ « Ian Vincent
December 30, 2011 at 1:41 am
Look here and you will see they are all free. http://pro-gospel.org/newsletters
Mike Gendron
January 1, 2012 at 3:03 am
Mike, im sorry i didnt see that you also have some free stuff, my mistake.
Where your site says, “Newsletter Subscription $20.00″, you should make a note below that it’s free, to avoid misunderstanding, as people are bound to think that you’re charging $20 for the newsletter.
ian vincent
January 1, 2012 at 8:38 am
I’ve been studying and witnessing the gospel for a long time, and I’m still learning new things.
So, I think these conversations among ‘counselors’ are profitable for the work of the kingdom.
Thinking about your question, Sean, I would say that the core message of the gospel is this: that Christ died for our sins. Here are a couple of interesting quotes from Paul:
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. (1 Corinthians 2:2).
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:23).
The bookend truths of this core message are that 1) Christ lived a sinless life, for which cause, He was an acceptable sacrifice to God and 2) Christ rose from the dead, as evidence that the Father accepted His sacrifice and that He was the Son of God.
The word will bear fruit of itself: it’s power does not originate from the character of the vessel preaching it, for which cause, Paul gave thanks that the gospel was even preached in contention [mockingly], according to Philippians 1:16.
However, Peter and John, after enduring physical persecution, prayed for boldness in the preaching of the gospel, which is the supernatural aid of the Holy Spirit that is available to all who preach by faith (Acts 17:?).
Faith is the important thing, as Paul attests in the following verse:
And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
–1 Corinthians 2:3-5
I believe Paul feared and trembled before God [he also wrote, "work out your salvation in fear and trembling before the Lord"]: this gospel must be preached by faith, and by faith specifically in Christ’s atoning work on the cross at Calvary.
We know he preached by faith, and not natural ability, because of a couple of verses concerning him, elsewhere in the bible:
“For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible,” (2 Corinthians 10:10).
“And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker,” (Acts 14:12).
Mercury [or Hermes] was known in the Greek’s mythology as the ‘herald of the gods.’
No natural ability + faith = an effective witness.
Mark and Vicki Finger
December 30, 2011 at 6:12 pm
Paul was not skilled as a public speaker: “But though I be rude [unskillful] in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things,” (2 Corinthians 11:6).
However, it did not matter, as he did nothing by his own strength: “Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily,” (Colossians 1:29).
His ability to minister in the Spirit increased AS HE OBEYED GOD:
And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests? But Saul INCREASED THE MORE IN STRENGTH, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.
–Acts 9:20-22
Faith is the primary thing.
Mark and Vicki Finger
December 30, 2011 at 6:22 pm
If a “grace-based” gospel is true, no need to be concern about the “Lordship salvation message” as partial of full repentance is not the issue, neither important. If however, the message of full surrender is true, the “grace gospel” may fall short in offering others, or oneself, entrance into the Kingdom of God.
I am reminded of the two messages on either side of the Christ.
Sinner no one’s message sounds very much like the grace gospel of today; “if he is the Christ, he will save himself and me”. Sinner no two, sounds like the true gospel to me: “I deserve to die and am prepared to do so”.
After being given the “free gift of salvation”- internal life, it is prudent to depart from our old life which profits non. Accept the death penalty over the flesh as only dead people are justified from sin (Rom 6:7) I reveal a secret to you, flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom, hence depart from it through a willingness to die. With the Godly life in place, departure from the fleshly life becomes a prerequisite. Only those worthy to attain internal life, will be resurrected (Luke 20:35).
Jacobus
December 30, 2011 at 9:07 pm
Justification – a one time, instantaneous event.
Sanctification – taking up our cross daily and following Jesus
ian vincent
December 31, 2011 at 2:11 am
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
–Acts 16:31
What is belief?
According to John 3:16, belief is trusting in Christ’s sacrifice to save you.
Mark and Vicki Finger
December 30, 2011 at 9:14 pm
Sean said: “Why Lordship Salvation is not Biblical”
Before reading your article I though Lordship salvation was the teaching that we submit to Jesus as Lord after we say we believe the gospel. I had NO idea what these guys were actually teaching, that there is a long list of requirements that MUST be met along with believing in Christ. I do not believe it is another gospel to preach these requirements along with the gospel in some cases (such as you showed with the rich young ruler) but to make a systematic theology out stating these conditions must be preached with any gospel proclamation is clearly error and unbiblical as you have shown with scripture.
I say all that because I can see why some might think you are promoting half a Gospel, though I feel you have cleared that up pretty well in the bolded section “WHAT IF AN UNBELIEVER KNOWS, BUT WONT?”. I just wanted to add a couple of comments.
Sean said: “There are many others as well who hold to this view who usually fall into the Calvinist camp.”
This is the most surprising to me, how anyone who claims to believe in the “5 points”, “doctrines of grace”, or” justification by faith alone” could ever support such a doctrine as lordship salvation. It is quite contradictory and this leaves me wondering what these guys are actually teaching. Most of the true brethren that I know that fall into this camp know both of these vital truths in the correct order.
1) Salvation is by the merits of Christ and the new birth is through faith alone
2) True faith produces fruits keeping with repentance
I really have found the opposite of you – that most who hold to this type of “stop sinning then you can come to Jesus and be saved” doctrine are of the moral government theology camp, such as the heretical teachings that come out of open air outreach. Like I said though, I had no idea this is what MacArthur and company were preaching before I read your article so I won’t pretend to be an expert on it.
Sean said: “Preach the gospel as God’s free gift to be received by faith, and God will do the rest.”
Amen! I will only add not to ignore the means by which God does the rest. This is often through His saints and through the effectual call for professing believers to turn from known sins, pick up their cross, and follow after Christ. When talking to unbelievers of course these things do not bring someone into the new birth, but I don’t think we have to hide them from people either at the risk of putting the cart before the horse. On the other hand I don’t think we have to talk about them with every person we witness to or make them a requirement for salvation either.
You gave some great examples of the pattern of preaching throughout the book of Acts. The person of Christ (the death and resurrection included) is the foundation and center of what we proclaim for sure. Here is where I may differ from you and some of other responses though (not sure). I don’t think it is another Gospel if the Holy Spirit leads me to tell an unbeliever to forsake their sin and follow Christ. I also don’t think I am preaching half a gospel if the Holy Spirit leads me to tell someone to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved – without ever mentioning self denial or turning from sin. Both cases are found in scripture.
Either way I can point to a Biblical example to support what I am doing. I know by experience and sound teaching that faith (a gift of God) proceeds and then produces works (fruits or repentance). Yet I would probably sometimes be accused of preaching another Gospel by those in the free grace camp if I simple quote scripture in context.
To support what I am saying, since you already mentioned the rich young ruler, here is another time where Jesus calls people to self denial (besides his existing disciples).
Mark 8:34-36 And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel’s will save it. For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?
And in somewhat of a contrast here is the simplicity of the gospel.
John 6:28 -29 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
I wouldn’t dare claim the Lord was preaching a gospel of works in once place and half a gospel in another. That is kind of what happens in discussions like this though. One guys hears the preacher (Jesus in this case) talking to the rich young ruler and says he is a legalist, and one guys hears the preacher talking about believe only and says the preacher is teaching half a gospel or cheap grace. We live in such a day of lies and confusion where we have to have our guards up and that can lead to false accusations and misunderstandings very easily on both sides.
With all that, this is my conclusion and I think it is Biblical. There is a common theme throughout the gospels and Acts that you have shown, and is undeniable, where nothing is mentioned but child like faith to save – no “go sell all you have”, no” forsake everything” etc… just believe. That is the Gospel. Yet we also see in other places where someone be in accord with the Holy Spirit and someone in the free grace camp could start crying works, legalism, etc. I thought you took extra care in your writing to avoid extremes on both sides for the most part.
Here is a couple of statements that I think are all true.
It is great error to take what Jesus said to the rich young ruler or in Mark 8 and make it a requirement for preaching the gospel.
It is also great error to take what Jesus in John 6:28 -29 and say it to the rich young ruler.
There is error on both sides if not lead by the Holy Spirit.
There is also a big difference between someone “not saying things in the right order” out of a pure heart and someone preaching it as a systematic theology such as lordship salvation.
Those are my thoughts; I look forward to reading more of your response to other comments too.
In Christ -Jim
BTW – Just read your response to Adam – perfect brother. That is all I am trying to say above – but you put it so clearly. I am not sure anyone can refute what you are saying and I think it would be good for all to keep our eyes on Jesus and let life flow from there – not put the cart before the horse.
fleebabylon
January 1, 2012 at 6:55 am
Hey Jim,
Good comments. You said
I agree with you. I hope my post didn’t come across as saying that it would be wrong to mention the conditions/commands of discipleship or any other passage from the scriptures. In fact, I’ll often bring passages like those up, and passages in 1st John as well, when I feel that I’m dealing with someone who’s a false convert. The other day I was talking to a young man at the bus stop. He kinda had the gangster look, had a big silver cross necklace, was openly talking to his friend about “hooking’ up with girls, was playing gangster rap on his phone, and every other word coming out of his mouth was the F word. He said he was Christian and had been so for a long time. With guys like him I have no problem showing him from the scripture what the life a believer in Christ looks like. Maybe showing him passages on discipleship, passages from 1st John, passages on sin, etc; all with the hopes of undoing the false assurance that either he or someone else has given him. But I know that it won’t be this mans decision or commitment to the commands of discipleship that will save him. It will be his understanding, by God’s Spirit, of the Gospel. Repenting towards God and putting ones faith in Jesus Christ is doorway into the kingdom, it’s what brings about the New Birth. Jesus himself had people who were disciples, people who followed him in discipleship, who had not come to him to have life.
“Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.” (Joh 6:60-66)
So you have men who are learning from Jesus, following him around, called disciples, but still did not believe. Again, the apostle John and the Holy Spirit calls them disciples but they still did not fully believe in Christ. Eventually these people fell away. It reminds me of stories I’ve heard of men who have gone to the mission field and then later abandoned their faith in Christ. By all appearances they were following Christ in discipleship but they had still never come to him that they might have life.
What I’ve noticed in the gospels is that every time Jesus speaks on “coming after him” or “discipleship” (Matt 10, Mark 8, Luke 9, & Luke 14) he’s giving specific instructions to his disciples and sometimes to the crowds that have gathered around him, with his disciples, to hear what he’s saying. However, when you get to the book of Acts, in every recorded instance of gospel preaching, none of these passages are ever mentioned or brought up as pre-requisites to faith that men must first be faced with and agree to. I have no doubt that these truths were later taught by the apostles because Jesus said:
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” (Mat 28:19-20)
Yet the discipleship passages were not included in what is and was considered the gospel message. What I believe the scriptures show is that the discipleship passages do and will ultimately characterize the life, attitude, and heart of believers, but that it also shows that one can begin to follow after Christ in discipleship and still not be saved. That whether one has knowledge of the conditions of discipleship or not, what ultimately saves a person is their belief in the gospel. It’s their belief in the Son of God, who was crucified and died for theirs sin, and rose from the grave, to provide them with forgiveness of sins and eternal life. Up front understanding and commitment to the commands of discipleship, as Lordship salvation advocates teach, is not a pre-requisite for one to receive the New Birth in Christ.
You said:
I totally agree. I think everyone has said things in a wrong way before, when they actually mean something else. I’ve been guilty of it for sure. Like you said, there is a difference between saying things out of order from a pure heart and someone preaching a systematic theology such as Lordship Salvation.
Sean Scott
January 2, 2012 at 7:30 pm
When we witness, we give utterance by faith, according to the leading of the Holy Spirit: it is those with understanding who are converted in the parable of the sower, so I always like to encourage people to be honest with me concerning their questions or objections, trying to make that a comfortable process for them.
That way, I know where to go, what part of the word to appeal to: basically, we go as far as grace allows.
Consequently, the purpose of this discussion is not to create laws for witnessing that must be followed in every situation, but to gain a better understanding of the truths that the gospel contains.
Why is this important?
In every way, it will increase our faith.
Preaching the cross [explaining why Jesus died for our sins] usually leads to a robust discussion, including:
1) God’s righteousness, as expressed through His commandments
2) Man’s sin, as revealed by God’s higher, New Testament standard for righteousness: for example, he who
looks upon a woman and lusts, has committed adultery with her already in his heart
3) The coming judgment and command for men everywhere to repent by faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ.
Between Sean and Jim, that was a good summation, I thought.
Peace,
Mark
Mark and Vicki Finger
January 1, 2012 at 7:52 am
Amen.
and Amen.
Sean Scott
January 9, 2012 at 4:21 pm
I believe that the subjects of ‘Lordship Salvation’ and Repentance are two separate, yet related, topics.
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I read this comment on another blog:
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Repentance actually comes after you have been forgiven…it comes with the realisation of how much God has fore-given…how much God has let go the right to just terms and repayment of the debt…not before it.
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Was nearly going to reply to this for a couple of days, and during walks in the fields kept chewing it over, that is, this subject of repentance and forgiveness……..
Some points:
The atonement is not that God has forgiven the human race. God has not forgiven the human race, rather, thru His atonement He extends forgiveness and offers it to all the human race, and they are not one and the same thing.
A person is not forgiven until they receive God’s forgiveness in Jesus.
A sinner realizes God is extending forgiveness to him. Why do some receive and others not? b cos some love their sin more than Jesus.
Therefore the message of God offering His forgiveness is not good news to the one who is not willing to repent.
Willingness to repent is what ‘belief’ or faith hinges on.
After plainly hearing the gospel, the person who is not willing to repent has chosen not to believe.
ian vincent
January 3, 2012 at 7:34 am
Well written and balanced approach to your article. I understand your concern about something missing from many of the tracts that are promoted out there. I was looking for tracts to pass out last year and even got some old sample to look at from a Christian I work with. To me it seemed like whoever was publishing and distributing left things open purposely so that you would be dependent on whatever church that passed them out to finish whatever version of the Gospel they wanted to portray. I think many times it makes people dependent on the institution rather than Christ. BTW I ended up creating my own, showing the law as God’s standard and Christ’s fulfillment of it for us. I also defined the words sin and repent. But I used a dictionary definition of repent. They read as follows
Sin: an offense against a moral law.
Repent: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one’s life.
The definitions may still serve the purpose, but you made me go back and re-look at the Greek and Hebrew words. And I do agree with your assessment of the Greek word metanoeo, Strong’s G3340. But I thought I would also add to the discussion with the Hebrew words nacham, (H5162) which essentially means to regret, be moved to pity or be sorry. I think this can also be part of true repentance for some. That when faced with our offenses towards God and His Holiness that we can truly be moved to grief or be sorry for what we have offended Him.
As far as how you described Lordship Salvation when I read above, it sounds like something you would tell someone who is already saved when teaching about God’s sanctification.
Thanks, God Bless, Al
Al
January 4, 2012 at 12:33 am
Thanks Al. I tried to be as clear as I could because I realized that it would be very easy to be misunderstood when discussing “why Lordship Salvation is not biblical.” Not sure that I was totally clear for everyone, but I hope the comments have helped to bring some clarity to what I was saying in my post.
I appreciate you bringing up the Hebrew definition of repentance. Like you said “it certainly can be part of true repentance for some.” There are definitely cases in the scripture where people believed the gospel and, and at least with what is recorded, didn’t seem to show much visible sorrow or regret (Ethiopian Eunuch, Cornelius). But I think more often that not, when people repent and believe, there is a degree of sorrow for their sins and offences towards God. That was the case with me. When I repented and believed, I found myself deeply sorry and remorseful and in tears to God. But my sorrow and remorse soon left and I was filled with an overwhelming joy and love that comes from God.
Sean Scott
January 4, 2012 at 9:56 pm
I wish these comments weren’t ‘nested’: it makes it harder for me to find new comments concerning older threads, sometimes.
Belief leads to repentance; repentance doesn’t lead to belief.
When the Holy Spirit draws a person, He gives sinners the ability to freely choose whether they will believe or reject the truth [for they are dead in their sins and under the power of Satan, having no freedom to choose, absent the Spirit's intercession].
Those who believe are saved and bear fruit.
Biblical repentance IS believing [trusting] in Christ’s atonement for eternal life.
Who agrees?
Mark and Vicki Finger
January 6, 2012 at 11:18 pm
He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are worked in God.
(John 3:18-21)
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So, what is preventing certain men from believing is that they choose to love the darkness rather than come to the light. Therefore, it’s not a neat sequence of events, where first a man believes, and then after that he realizes he needs to repent.
And those who love the darkness are called unbelievers, here, even if they profess to be Christians and to have faith.
ian vincent
January 7, 2012 at 2:06 am
It appears that faith produces repentance, simultaneously. There is no time gap between faith and repentance. Looking to Jesus for salvation implies looking away from everything else. Looking to, and looking away, being the same movement. The emphasis is on looking to Jesus, and the looking away from sin has to be the natural consequence of looking to Jesus.
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.”..neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed…”
Coming to the light will mean an exposure of a person’s sins. Therefore, coming to the light is synonymous with repentance.
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The scripture above, John 3:18-21, would seem to be at odds with the popular belief that people keep away from God for fear of punishment, and bcos they judge His nature as being solely that of anger and retribution.
People often use this as an excuse for their sin, as a self-justification. or a cloak to hide it
These verses imply that everyone knows deep in their heart that God will accept them if they will repent, but seeing that they love their sin more than God, then they will seek to justify their position, in any way possible.
False Christianity (babylon the great) provides a means for such people to keep their sin and yet outwardly appear righteous (Phariseeism).
ian vincent
January 7, 2012 at 5:09 am
Yes, Ian.
What comes out to me when I read this thread is two-fold: speak by faith; follow the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Pretty simple!
Peace, brothers
Mark and Vicki Finger
January 7, 2012 at 6:07 pm
Amen. May we yield to and wait for the Holy Spirit’s guidance in all things, and for Him to instruct us and help us to think soundly – our minds renewed by the Word as the Holy Spirit teaches us.
When we use the word “repent” or “repentance” it is either understood rightly or wrongly.
The right understanding is that it means to change our mind as in our attitude toward our sin, from a position of tolerating it, or even loving it, and making excuse for it, to a position of despising it and of being sincerely sorry for it – Godly sorrow which works repentance. It is the light which has exposed the darkness for what it is.
The wrong understanding, or religious understanding, is that it means to sit down and make a calculation, and to make a deal with God, that if we will stop sinning then He will forgive us – if we keep our end of the bargain, He will keep His…. which is very wrong. It is trying to be justifed by our works and the law.
What is trying to be saved by works if it is not to trust in one’s “repentance” ? Repentance can never be the object of our faith, what we trust in.
So, perhaps our discussion is more over the nature of what repentance is.
“Lordship salvation” speaks more of a calculation or a deal with God.
On a related note: When we confess our sins as believers, it is a confession which rests upon the fact that we are saved and justifed, to begin with. It is the confession of a son, or child of God. It is confession and repentance from a position of sonship or justification.
This throws a little light on what true repentance is. For when an unbeliever repents and believes the Gospel it is in the same order in which a believer repents and confesses his sins, if he sins. It’s not a different order.
That is, with us believers, if we sin, confessing our sin is automatic. It’s not a work. It’s the same with all true faith, that repentance will be automatic and not a work.
ian vincent
January 8, 2012 at 12:32 am
Amen. I know that when I first believed, the day I was born again, I was sorry for my sins. But even then, my understanding of sin was so shallow (I had not sat under years of biblical teaching before Christ saved me). With myself, and I think with all believers, we don’t really begin to fully grasp what sin is and how evil it is, until we are believers in Jesus Christ. Our repentance in this area grows as the Spirit of God shows us the reality of what sin is and how great an offense it is to God.
Yes, that is what I was trying to point out, and that is what you see promoted in a lot of tracts and what you hear in a lot preaching. People may be doing those things unintentionally but nevertheless it happens.
I agree. When I started looking into and writing on this subject I started by looking at the nature of repentance. But once I better understood the nature of repentance I started examining why different people preach repentance in different ways, and what they mean by it. For me, this is what led to the examining of the Lordship Salvation doctrine. It’s in this doctrine that we often see the wrong definition of repentance promoted, which leads to a presentation of a distorted gospel.
The whole study and discussion and been really beneficial to me because, as Mark said, it really helps in our understanding of the truths contained in the GOSPEL. Everything in the bible is truth, but not all of it is defined as the Gospel. Sometimes we say things are the Gospel when they are not the Gospel. They may be the results of the gospel, the fruit of the gospel, but they are not essential message that one must believe in order to be saved. Not that certain truths have to be hidden or not mentioned by any means. Usually, the more we can share the better. It’s just good to understand what the Gospel is and how freely God saves those who repent and believe it.
Sean Scott
January 9, 2012 at 4:45 pm
Sean:
In the context of this original post, as it relates to witnessing, I think that what we should be emphasizing to the lost in terms of repentance is that ONLY faith in Christ gives man power over sin and freedom from the dominion of sin.
I would have no problem describing to them what a life of repentance is, but I would want them to understand what I have written above, which is best exemplified in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Peace,
Mark
Mark and Vicki Finger
January 8, 2012 at 2:34 pm