Post by David Wilkerson Today
I receive David Wilkerson’s daily exhortation in my email. I don’t always read them but sometimes I do. Just wanted to post the one he sent out today and comment on it.
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I HAVE NEED OF YOU
“Some Christians don’t want to be connected to other members of the body of Christ. They commune with Jesus, but they deliberately isolate themselves from other believers. They want nothing to do with the body, other than the head.
But a body can’t be comprised of just a single member. Can you picture a head with only an arm growing out of it? Christ’s body can’t be made up of a head alone, with no limbs or organs. His body consists of many members. We simply can’t be one with Christ without being with his body also.
Our need is not just for the head, it’s for the whole body. We are knit together not only by our need for Jesus, but by our need for each other. Paul states, “The eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again they head to the feet, I have no need of you” (1 Corinthians 12:21).
Note the second half of this verse. Even the head cannot say to another member, “I don’t need you.” What an incredible statement! Paul is telling us, “Christ will never say to any member of his body, ‘I have no need of you.’” Our head willingly connects himself to each of us. Moreover, he says we’re all important, even necessary, to the functioning of his body.
This is especially true of members who may be bruised and hurting. Paul emphasizes, “Much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary” (12:22). The apostle then adds, “And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor; and our uncomely part have more abundant comeliness” (23:23). He’s speaking of those in Christ’s body who are unseen, hidden, unknown. In God’s eyes, these members have great honor. And they’re absolutely necessary to the work of his body.
This passage holds profound meaning for us all. Paul is telling us, “It doesn’t matter how poor your self-image may be. You may think that you’re not measuring up as a Christian. But the Lord himself says, ‘I have need of you. You’re not just an important member of his body. You’re vital and necessary for it to function.’”
As important members of the body of Christ, believers are to rise up and take serious action against Satan’s attacks against fellow believers. Amazingly, this command is ignored by many Christians. When we see a believer in pain, we want to offer comfort, of course, and that is an act of godly love. But that is not enough! Every believer is to bind Satan in Jesus’ name and cast him into outer darkness. That is a sign of being a true member of the body.” …. David Wilkerson
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David Wilkerson is very true regarding our need for each other in the body of Christ. Anyone who desires to remain apart from the body of Christ is in great spiritual danger. But I would like to just briefly look at this from a different perspective. Let me start of by saying this is not an attack on David Wilkerson by any means. This brother has encouraged me greatly and in many ways has stood faithfully against much of the apostasy today (I say much, but not all). But here’s the thing, I’ve heard many pastors say the exact same thing that David is saying in this post…especially the part I highlighted in red. However, most pastors that preach like this are guilty of doing the very thing they are coming against. They shut out different giftings in the body and build “their” church on themselves. They run a one or two man show while the rest of the body sits and watches Sunday after Sunday. The church never gets to “be” the church because in reality most churches are built on one part of the body…not every member. And while they preach that every member is important by their actions they teach just the opposite. The reality is if the leadership in most churches would practice this very thing, facilitating a fellowship where each member of the body can participate, they would find that there would be less people who want nothing to do with the “visable” Church….which in most cases is nothing more than just a Sunday program of one man preaching. Again it comes down to FOUNDATIONS. If men are unwilling to look at the scriptural foundation of fellowship what more can one expect that what we see today? Unfortunately, this is something most pastors are unwilling to look at. And as Pastors shut out members of the body of Christ who have different giftings than theirs they end up says “I HAVE NO NEED OF YOU”.
Sean Scott's Blog 
I would also add that many Pastors do say “I have no need of you” to the other four MAIN giftings (Eph. 4:11) that is NEEDED to mature the saints. And there is no one man that has all 5 main gifts. God made it that way so that one man does not have control. This is the New Covenant way, but many churches are still under old Covenant.
Lisa
January 5, 2010 at 10:31 pm
Hi you guys!
I also read that article on David’s blog, and i thought the same as you, Sean. I greatly value David, have visited his church on two occasions and was blessed.
In an audio of his i once heard, while he was pausing, a man in the congregation began to prophesy. David cut him off immediately and said respectfully that God was speaking thru him at the moment, something like that, therefore it was inappropriate for anyone else to prophesy at that time. I thought that was bad. He didn’t even wait to hear what the man was saying.
The model David has followed is the easy way. The NT way is difficult, bcos it can ONLY work by the power of God.
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http://www.youareallbrothers.com/current/show_article.php?id=142,20041014
From: http://www.ianvincent.org
To: All
Subject: Presidential debate
Date: 14th October 2004
I didn’t see the debates, (i live in India – a world away), but i read about them on the net. The 2 parties and the moderator/referee can be seen as a model of worldly Christian meetings, (a.k.a. church). The debate ‘works’ only because of the agency of the moderator. Without him, well, you can imagine the outcome: a shouting match and maybe even ‘fisticuffs’.
This is what would happen if the moderators/referees in the hybrid system of Christianity, (which evolved after the early apostles died), were suddenly missing from the program.
(Could you imagine in St Peters Basilica a beggar walking in off the street and just walking up to the ‘pope’s’ throne and being allowed to say something to the people? Could you imagine such a thing taking place anywhere?)
Because Bush and Kerry are mere carnal men, (like we used to be before), they need a framework; a ‘policeman’ to keep their carnality in check.
In like manner, ‘carnal-Christians’ actually need traditions, programs, liturgies etc. to counter and subdue their carnality. Without these constraints there would be chaos and violence, (and even with the ‘constraints’ in effect in religion there’s enough carnality anyway).
Now, what if Bush and Kerry where actually sons of the Father in Heaven, (Jesus’ Father), and were fully conformed to Christ, with Jesus Christ living powerfully in them? Then there would be no need for a moderator, as they would have the RESOURCES WITHIN THEMSELVES to love each other and to speak respectfully to one another, and to prefer the other, and to esteem the other better than himself.
So, there’s a choice facing Christianity: either continue in the artificial-dead-controlled and non-relational way, (which is dead easy! – that’s why its preferred by the majority – it ‘works’ ), i.e. ‘rent-a-pastor/pope’ to be your moderator, your referee, to keep your carnality in check so that the program runs ‘smoothly’ :
or, ………….get the NECESSARY RESOURCES WITHIN YOURSELVES , i.e. a broken and humble spirit, so that the Holy Spirit can be the moderator, and the Lord Jesus Christ as the Mediator and Ruler and Head over His Body.
The carnal traditional church model is an artificial environment, and it’s an alien environment to the Holy Spirit, and to those who are truly filled with the Spirit.
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 2 Cor. 3:17
End.
ian vincent
January 6, 2010 at 2:27 am
I cannot even imagine how spot on this comment by http://www.weareallbrothers.com is…..
I have two sons living on the streets… both are struggling with their choices but are trying with Gods help and the Holy Spirit to again find the path…. the narrow way…
One son in particular went into a church…pentecostal and asked if they could give him a blanket…. the ” christian security police ” showed him the door…he even offered a little money that he had….. I think if Jesus walked the earth today most churches would kick him out… even back in those days maybe that is why he did not have anywhere to “lay his head”……. still ” No room at the inn….that is for sure” !!!
Bless you the person who wrote this you are spot on..
A mother of 7 and grandmother of 2….Helen
helen foster
January 21, 2010 at 2:54 am
Paul writes of all that Jesus began to “do and teach” in Acts 1:1. It is living a particular truth that qualifies us to teach it.
We should never teach truth by word only (as an outside teacher who comes to provide doctrinal information, however true): rather, we should always (in every situation) model truth in a relational context (which requires us to know one another in the work of the kingdom), expounding upon the scriptures as God gives utterance.
In other words, all teachers are FIRST fellow workers and co-laborers (examples), as servants of the living God, and teaching is what naturally transpires as a result (based upon their gift/function).
Consequently, we can see why it is so important for us to “teach faithful men,” raising up new leaders by example in the body of Christ: for the necessary, relational aspect of teaching requires many new examples (mature, servant-leaders) to reach many new people.
A real teacher must consider, “Am I willing to be offered?”: not only in death, but also in doing the work of the ministry: for service to the body is often a form of self-denial on the part of the mature (“But not my will, but thine be done, Lord”).
Peace,
Mark
Mark and Vicki Finger
January 6, 2010 at 5:16 am
Hi Mark,
Thanks for what you wrote. I partly agree with what you are saying. Or..maybe I”m just not understanding you correctly. If I’m not please let me know. For the majority of the time, regarding teachers, I think you are right. The majority of teaching should happen within the context of the local fellowship. This should be exactly as you described. The teacher should be one who is a fellow worker and co-laborer. One who has the life of Christ being manifested through them. Not just someone who is teaching to communicate information. The Apostle Paul was like this. His teaching wasn’t just a communication of information. It was an extenstion of his life IN Christ. However, there are times when one may teach without any relational bond. Paul was commissioned by the Lord and set out by Him. He did not need established relationships to teach truth about the Lord Jesus. There were some Churches that Paul, as far as I know, never visted in the flesh. Yet he felt compelled to write them letter teaching them truth about Jesus. I’m confident that if the Apostle was able to visit these Churches he would have no problem teaching them truths about Jesus even though he lacked relationship with these brethren. Paul’s teaching would be testified to by the Spirit…it would come not just in word but power.
I used to attend, years ago, a fellowship in Dallas, TX. It began to apostisize by embracing “emergent church” “post modern” teaching. They focused primarily on God’s love to the exlusion of all of God’s other attributes. Therefore people had a warped view of who God was. If they would have agreed to let someone like Paul Washer (or someone else who understood more of God’s nature) come in and teach on the attributes of God I do not think it would have been wrong. In fact, it would have been a tremendous blessing and brought about much correct undestanding of who God is. Espcially in areas that they neglected. I think it can be dangerous to make an absolute statement like “We should never teach truth by word only (as an outside teacher who comes to provide doctrinal information, however true): “. I think God uses both. I do agree though that as a rule the majority (but not all) of teaching should be done in the context of relationships. And the teacher should be communicating truth from the life that he is living in Christ.
God Bless,
IN Christ,
Sean
Sean Scott
January 6, 2010 at 4:24 pm
Re: “In an audio of his i once heard, while he was pausing, a man in the congregation began to prophesy. David cut him off immediately and said respectfully that God was speaking thru him at the moment, something like that, therefore it was inappropriate for anyone else to prophesy at that time. I thought that was bad. He didn’t even wait to hear what the man was saying.”
Was thinking about this incident, and then i realized that the aspect of dialogue is totally missing from churches these days. E.g. David would not even hear what that guy had to say, he was not open to the possibility that any member of the Body of Christ could participate during the meeting.
There are reasons for this and they are carnal reasons.
Much of our LORD’s teaching was, or sprang from, dialogue. Paul taught in the school of Tyrannus during T’s lunch breaks and it’s said he dialogued there.
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On the relational aspect which Mark brought up, i would add, yes, Paul did send his message to people he’d never met, and that seems obvious to me, that our message is for ALL, not a private message, if by any means God would speak thru us to many people. Yet, surely Paul was *available* for relationship with all. And here’s the difference i think Mark is underlining. Most modern preachers are not like Paul. They are so in love with them self and their own image, and that is why they are not relational.
Ironically, many abandoned Paul at the end of his life. It’s hard for us to accept that.
ian vincent
January 7, 2010 at 12:07 am
This may seem to be a bit of a disconnected response to your comments but I felt to write it anyway….God we know looks at the heart and sees our cry..he does not look as man looks….He will be merciful to His own…A lot of what seems to concern us now will be totally irrelevant in I believe the not too distant future….For a long time now I believe that the church will go out as it came in….persecutions/underground!!!..why?…because in Mathew 24:9…we, those who profess to be His will be hated by ALL NATIONS….from what I see the apostate churches are not preparing the people for persecution…Yes God can spare us and some He will but most seem to be waiting for the rapture before the horror times begin so are lulled into living saltless lives…. …but that is not what the scriptures teach…The two witnesses in Revelation we have been taught are two people but in verse 4 of Chapter 11 it tells us who they are…two olive trees and two candlesticks…The two houses ofIsrael and the two churches left from Revelation2…..John the Baptist came to prepare the way in the desert for the Lord…teaching repentance…..( Jesus said that Elijah had already come..John the Baptist ) The scriptures teach that Elijah has to come before the great and terrible day of the Lord….. The two witness are called to prepare now for the return of the Lord crying now in the “wilderness” of our time to repent……In every church in Revelation the Lord tells us that HE THAT OVERCOMES will have the promises..Overcoming what? sin of course..living before the Lord in a repentant state….To the church in Sardis the Lord sais.. ” He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white rainment and I WILL NOT BLOT his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels…. Does this mean that if we don,t overcome He will blot our names out?…….
We have lost the fear of the Lord…God is a consuming fire…purging out of our lives what is not pleasing to him….God have mercy on us all….In the times ahead The Lord will be our ONLY hiding place…. with His grace we must prepare for that place which is a one to one moment by moment realtionship with the Lord…..not looking to the left or the right but setting our ” hearts ” like flint looking to the New Jerusalem……..this world is not our home………
helen foster
January 21, 2010 at 11:38 pm
I agree that brother David is a man of God and has influenced many as the Lord has used him as a prophet, evangelist, and pastor over the years. I believe he was just as much in Gods will when planting ts as when he was preaching on the streets of NY. There is a time in planting a new church though when the missionary needs to stop acting as a missionary and needs to allow and ENCOURAGE the believers who have been saved through his preaching to operate as the body of Christ. I believe that many Godly brethren, more Godly then I, have missed this mark because of ignorance and tradition. They may encourage the believers to act as a body but they unwittingly bind them with traditions so they can not do so to any great degree. On the other end of the spectrum I have seen some of the most perverse heretics given equal say in open style home meetings, where as they would have been shut up and excommunicated from time square Church.
In Christ – Jim
Jim
January 7, 2010 at 12:47 am
” On the other end of the spectrum I have seen some of the most perverse heretics given equal say in open style home meetings, where as they would have been shut up and excommunicated from time square Church.”
I agree brother…but that’s a whole other topic. Heretic’s abound both in institutional churches and home groups. The question is though- just because a church like Times Square has been used of God and has Godly preachers (Wilerson & Conlon) does that excuse the hindering of the body of Christ from being the body? Or does the good that come out of that church overide any need for correction or accountability to biblical fellowship?
I’m not sure it’s good to compare the two (institutional church/home fellowship) but rather just look at what the scripture says and let each individual place be measured by that.
(oh yea… I wasn’t intentionally trying to single Times Square Church out. I was just commenting on how what David Wilkerson said is tyipical of lot’s of pastors who exculed the body of Christ. But to be truthful David Wilkerson’s fellowship does this as well. Their service is like any other traditional serivce.)
Sean Scott
January 7, 2010 at 1:14 am
Re: “The question is though- just because a church like Times Square has been used of God and has Godly preachers (Wilerson & Conlon) does that excuse the hindering of the body of Christ from being the body? Or does the good that come out of that church overide any need for correction or accountability to biblical fellowship?
I’m not sure it’s good to compare the two (institutional church/home fellowship) but rather just look at what the scripture says and let each individual place be measured by that.”
That echoes exactly what we believe as well. Yes, bro, we understand you’re not singling out TSC.
For the ‘grass roots’ saints, a hindrance is when they hold certain men and churches up as the standard of what Jesus wants for His church. It’s easy to fall into that thinking when God has used someone like David and TSC in such a rich way.
The Kingdom is about the ‘grass roots’ coming up and being all that our LORD Jesus Christ purchased them with His blood to be.
ian vincent
January 7, 2010 at 1:35 am
Re:
“On the other end of the spectrum I have seen some of the most perverse heretics given equal say in open style home meetings, where as they would have been shut up and excommunicated from time square Church.”
Aint that the truth, Jim.
ian vincent
January 7, 2010 at 1:28 am
Greetings, brother!
Yes, brother, I agree that teaching can be done from a distance. As I said in a comment to you on another thread: “Ahh! You’re writing again, a function useful for strengthening, encouraging, and comforting the body of Christ.” I consider the biblical expounding you do here, the prophesying of the words of the Lord, to be teaching: and by word only!
(I am using ‘all caps’ in places below, because I don’t have an italics function on comments.)
When I was writing, I was thinking of how I have an opportunity to go to El Salvador this summer and disciple some new assemblies (church plants in homes) in HOW TO ASSEMBLE ACCORDING TO THE NEW TESTAMENT PATTERN (which I realize now, I did not explain): in that context, I would NEVER come in as an ‘outside authority’ and simply teach in a lecture-based manner. I would work with one small group at a time (rather than one large group in which all the small groups are assembled) and share the appropriate truths about how to relate to one another within the assembly WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY PRACTICING THOSE TRUTHS I WAS CONVEYING WITH THOSE GATHERED.
Moreover, I would want to live among them (as you said), according to Acts 20:17-21.
Interestingly enough, I went to a church one time, and the pastor called me up to say something (charismatic group). I said a few things and set down. (I really didn’t want to say anything, at the time.) Anyway, later, he called me up again. This time, I spoke for some extended period of time. The people were responding to a lot of things I said in a very engaged fashion.
I didn’t know any of the people who attended this assembly except one lady whom I had fellow-shipped with in another assembly some years before. As I was leaving through the parking lot that night, I saw her and asked her what she thought that night was all about. She said that a lot of wrong things had been going on in that assembly for some time, and everything I had said had worked to bring correction to those wrongs.
The pastor was a former Benny Hinn staffer, and another one of Hinn’s current employees had come to speak (but never did that night).
So, I guess by practice, I agree with you (smile).
Below, I have written something that I believe. How do you (and anyone else) think the following conviction impacts this discussion we are having? (I’m not sure and would be interested in what others might have to contribute.)
“Teaching is as much the the context as it is the truth, for the Spirit defines the context: in my understanding, doctrine and practice are inseparable (one thing), just as there is never any division between word (scripture) and Spirit.”
Just a general query.
Peace!
Mark and Vicki Finger
January 7, 2010 at 4:54 pm
“When I was writing, I was thinking of how I have an opportunity to go to El Salvador this summer and disciple some new assemblies (church plants in homes) in HOW TO ASSEMBLE ACCORDING TO THE NEW TESTAMENT PATTERN (which I realize now, I did not explain): in that context, I would NEVER come in as an ‘outside authority’ and simply teach in a lecture-based manner. I would work with one small group at a time (rather than one large group in which all the small groups are assembled) and share the appropriate truths about how to relate to one another within the assembly WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY PRACTICING THOSE TRUTHS I WAS CONVEYING WITH THOSE GATHERED.
Moreover, I would want to live among them (as you said), according to Acts 20:17-21.
”
Brother I agree. I’ve traveled to a lot of countries. I’ve seen people put on quick two day conferences and “from what I’ve see” I don’t see them produce much fruit. From my short 6 month experience in India I learned a lot. I met all kinds of pastors who have probably been to COUNTLESS conferences and they probably nodded their heads in agreement with everything taught. Yet most of them are either unchanged or corrupt. BUT, I noticed that if you spend time when them and model what you are preaching (just live it out) – then in those who are true brothers you will see lasting fruit. I’m definitely on the same page with you there.
““Teaching is as much the the context as it is the truth, for the Spirit defines the context: in my understanding, doctrine and practice are inseparable (one thing), just as there is never any division between word (scripture) and Spirit.”
Amen.
Sean
January 7, 2010 at 8:14 pm
I guess I believe that God desired ‘great teaching’ (which is HIS teachings) to come through MANY faithful men (and not only an elite group of special men), and the fact that the church today does not believe it probably explains why 1) the church has not effectually evangelized the world yet and 2) we have such a lack of elders among us today.
Mark and Vicki Finger
January 7, 2010 at 4:57 pm
“I guess I believe that God desired ‘great teaching’ (which is HIS teachings) to come through MANY faithful men (and not only an elite group of special men), and the fact that the church today does not believe it probably explains why 1) the church has not effectually evangelized the world yet and 2) we have such a lack of elders among us today.”
I totally agree.
“Also, when I meet in small groups with relatively new believers, I IMMEDIATELY began encouraging them to contribute out of the context of what the Lord is doing in their lives.”
This is very good.
Sean
January 7, 2010 at 8:16 pm
Also, when I meet in small groups with relatively new believers, I IMMEDIATELY began encouraging them to contribute out of the context of what the Lord is doing in their lives.
Mark and Vicki Finger
January 7, 2010 at 5:00 pm
It would be a joy if brother David Wilkerson would join our discussion here.
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Re: “…encouraging them to contribute out of the context of what the Lord is doing in their lives.”
Exactly.
Here’s a spiritual principle:
1Jn 1:3 ***That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you***
that you also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
In what way are we witnesses to Christ Jesus? A witness is simply that, he shows what he has seen and heard, that which has been revealed to him. And he knows this is a great responsibility he carries to faithfully testify to what he has seen.
He’s not a philosopher, speculator or theorist.
And, we believe and speak, as David said.
And, if these were silent, even the rocks would cry out!
ian vincent
January 8, 2010 at 1:39 am
Just want to add that when i say speaking what we’ve seen and heard i don’t mean esoteric experiences, i mean how the Holy Spirit spoke the Word of God into our hearts, engraving it in our hearts.
ian vincent
January 8, 2010 at 1:54 am
“It would be a joy if brother David Wilkerson would join our discussion here.”
I wanted you all to know….a similar version of what I wrote in this blog was also sent to David Wilkerson (before the blog was written). Not that I’m expecting a reply from him but just wanted to share with him also.
Sean
January 8, 2010 at 3:22 am
I like having a place that I can go to (like this site) in order to be ministered TO by others who are leaders BY EXAMPLE in the faith.
At least, that is healthy for me.
When the Lord does something cool (like, today, I found someone who wanted me to come to his house to minister to him [he’s a believer] and witness to his wife [claims she’s a believer, but no evidence of fruit]) …
… I like to share that with some other believer to celebrate the Lord’s work and participate in the joy of fellowship.
I find these moments to be times when the Lord will increase what He is already doing (enlarge the vision, so to speak), and I value these times as the MOST fruitful in my life. It’s communion, frankly: The Lord Jesus, me, and another(s).
So many people in the traditional church setting whom I try to do this with, simply don’t understand it. It’s frustrating.
The other thing they don’t understand is that I am not wanting to be an ‘officially designated’ leader, but rather, a leader by example only.
In this, I want to support others in walking in their callings, for one thing.
But for most church-goers, everything is compartmentalized. Nothing touches. Everything is a distinct program or something: and this also invites (at times) a territorial mentality.
I’m just doin’ some stuff for Jesus. That’s all.
But, too often, they don’t seem to get that.
Sigh …..
P.S. The believe I spoke of earlier needs to be walking in the light fully (for he has dabbled in darkness): the good news is that this is an opportunity; for he has lost friends (I know) whom can be invited to come over to his house to hear the gospel.
Peace
Mark and Vicki Finger
January 8, 2010 at 9:49 pm
Re:
‘officially designated’ leader”
“Everything is a distinct program or something: and this also invites (at times) a territorial mentality.”
These are the frustrations, even sufferings, you bear as a reformer type brother in the midst of the professing church and system. That’s surely a valid role.
Another role or calling is to build afresh on the right foundation, where all in fellowship are taught and understand the truth to begin with; there is never a tension concerning the things you mentioned. This second option is the ministry we’re doing here, yet still reaching out to those in the system.
There are distinctions with foundations.
Rom 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation:
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation, and another builds thereon. But let every man take heed how he builds thereupon.
ian vincent
January 8, 2010 at 11:33 pm
Insightful post, brother.
Actually, right now, I am doing both also: for the Lord has me working in three areas:
1) traditional church setting, modeling relational truth
2) in the small group setting, working with frustrated believers who have come out of the system
3) witnessing to the lost and discipling new converts
#3 is where I am really learning and growing right now (and the most exciting for me): this is where my heart is … and how, I believe, the Lord wants to use me in some future work, also
Mark and Vicki Finger
January 9, 2010 at 1:44 am
“Insightful post, brother.
Actually, right now, I am doing both also: for the Lord has me working in three areas:
1) traditional church setting, modeling relational truth
2) in the small group setting, working with frustrated believers who have come out of the system
3) witnessing to the lost and discipling new converts
#3 is where I am really learning and growing right now (and the most exciting for me): this is where my heart is … and how, I believe, the Lord wants to use me in some future work, also
”
Amen brother. May the Lord bless your work in Him.
Sean
January 9, 2010 at 2:24 am
Great post Sean, I wasn’t thinking you were coming against Wilkerson or any such thing. I think he is a really good example of how a very Godly man can unintentionally embrace mans tradition and prevent the body from growing in fullness.
Jim
Jim
January 9, 2010 at 9:51 pm
I agree with you entirely, Jim.
This scripture comes to mind:
Then Peter, turning about, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following; who also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, who is he that betrays you? Peter seeing him said to Jesus,
**Lord, and what shall this man do?**
Jesus said unto him,
**If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to you? you follow me.**
(John 21:20-22)
ian vincent
January 9, 2010 at 11:43 pm
Have attended TSC many times and will tell you that they are preaching truth and the true gospel, which so few churches are doing. Yes, it is a traditional service but the worship is very Jesus centered and the prayers are Holy Spirit filled. I am blessed EVERY time I go there. I believe the Lord has a special purpose for them in these troubling times.
Christine
January 10, 2010 at 1:15 am
Hi Christine,
Thanks for posting. I too have been blessed by both David Wilkerson and Carter Colon’s messages and do also believe the Lord has a purpose for them during these times.
The point of my post was to point out how many pastors (even Godly ones) tell their congregations that we are all needed in the body of Christ. Yet many times these pastors don’t practice what they preach. Especially as it relates to people who have different giftings than themselves..they prevent them from fuctioning in their fellowship. As far as I can tell there is no such thing as a Sunday service in Scripture where one or two men preach week after week and the rest of the believers just sing and listen. What you see in the Word of God is quite different. Each member of the body of Christ is able to participate within the guidelines the scripture gives. It truly allows the body to be the body, fosters growth in the individual believers life, and moves the focus off of one or two men and onto what the Lord is doing in the midst of the fellowship. There’s a reason God gave the five fold ministry found in Ephesians 4:11. Each gifting is necessary for the growth and maturity of the body. It is God’s design. If we don’t allow the body to function as it should then we are somewhat responsible before God for hindering His people and stunting the growth of His Body even if we have sound preaching week after week.
Again, I wasn’t necessarily wanting this post to be focused on David Wilkerson himself but more on an important element missing in the body of Christ. But as much as I admire David Wilderson and am thankful for much that he has preached on I have to agree with brother Jim when he says
“I think he is a really good example of how a very Godly man can unintentionally embrace mans tradition and prevent the body from growing in fullness.”
What’s “good” and “acceptable” can certainly be the enemey of God’s best.
Sean
January 10, 2010 at 2:44 am
I am thankful for how the work of the Lord through this brother David Wilkerson is being celebrated, as we should celebrate the Lord’s work in every believer’s life.
What do you guys think about these definitions?
Mark and Vicki Finger
January 10, 2010 at 8:55 pm
Oops … here they are!
Apostolic Calling and Function: one sent to establish order among the churches
Prophetic Calling and Function: one given grace to share divine counsel concerning a specific, practical matter facing an individual or localized assembly or to bring hidden things to light: and these inspired words are always scripture dependent (in line with God’s character and nature as revealed through the Holy Scriptures by the power of the Holy Spirit) and often scriptural (use scripture terms, verses, and context)
Teaching Calling and Function: one well versed in the doctrines and practices of our Lord Jesus and given grace to share within the assembly concerning these things: a doer first, and teacher, by nature.
Evangelistic Calling and Function: one given grace to herald the message of the gospel (applies to all believers: for all believers have received the ministry of reconciliation and the gift of the Holy Spirit, Whose work it is to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment)
Pastoral Calling and Function: one given grace to watch over (protect) and care for (serve and minister healing to) localized saints: inferring a relationship in which the character (manner of living) of both parties are known to one another (applies to male elders who mentor the assembly)
Calling and Function of a Deacon: one given grace to serve the physical needs of the assembly, especially caring for the weakest among us
Mark and Vicki Finger
January 10, 2010 at 8:59 pm
Amen brother… I would add a few things.
Prophetic can also be foretelling as in things that are about to happen in the future I.E. Agabus telling of a coming famine.
Teachers: they also have a gift and desire not just to teach the word but help others learn to teach themselves from the Word.
Evangelist: aside from preaching themselves they want to train the body in evangelism.
Sean
January 12, 2010 at 6:53 pm
Thanks. That’s good.
Mark and Vicki Finger
January 13, 2010 at 2:47 am
Thanks Sean. This has certainly given me food for thought. Enjoying your blog and writings!!!
Christine
January 14, 2010 at 12:12 pm
Very good and thoughtful post and responses. This is definitely in my vein of thinking of late regarding the body of Christ and how we are to relate to each other. For a long time, from my perspective, the Lord has called many out of organized religion. Many are now starving for fellowship. This leads me to think that maybe the next step will be for Jesus to assemble His body into fellowship. That is something I long for and look forward to. God Bless!
Al
January 14, 2010 at 7:19 pm
i followed david wilkerson for years – his sermons fed me and then one day, i was separated from him. it was NOT my idea – that does not mean that dw is off but his teachings were no longer for me – i had been taken to a different place –
if we are being led by the Spirit, we have no control of whether or not we are in church and part of a body – this is not our call – if we are followers of Yeshua, He leads us where He wants us to go – it may not be the same for each follower.
Ez. 34 – Our Father tells us that because the shepherds have NOT done their job, the Good Shepherd will pick up HIS flock and teach them. He affirms that in John 14,15,16 –
no servant should judge what another servant should be doing.
seventeen
January 15, 2011 at 5:48 pm
Hi Seventeen,
Thanks for your comments. I understand what you are saying but I think I disagree. Again let me say that my post isn’t about focusing on Wilkerson. It’s about the irony of those who say they need you “in the body” but then don’t let the body function as it should. By not doing so they are actually, by their actions, saying the opposite.
We shouldn’t judge what another servant of the Lord should be doing unless the Lord has told us what they should be doing in His word. The Spirit walk doesn’t contradict the written walk (what’s found in the word). They go hand in hand. Each servant of the Lord will have to give an account of their own life and to their own master they will stand or fall. We’re not always to judge a mans motives but we are to judge whether what we see and what we hear from them is right.
Sean Scott
January 16, 2011 at 3:01 am
Re: “no servant should judge what another servant should be doing”
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Rom 14:4 Who are you that judge another man’s servant? to his own master he stands or falls. Yea, he shall be held up: for God is able to make him stand.
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If we take in the context of this text, and read the whole chapter, we see that the type of judging referred to here is the type that *despises* a brother bcos of the type of food he eats.
It surely does not mean that brother cannot admonish brother.
Also, the accountability (to one another) of love is very different to the accountability of law. When the brethren really love each other, then they are extremely sensitive to any sin that could come in and break that close fellowship. They are also sensitive, in love, to whether the brethren are going the right way or not : meaning, they bear each others burdens.
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For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? But now has God set the members every one of them in the body, as it has pleased him. And if they were all one member, where would be the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of you: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor; and our less respectable parts have greater respect. For our more respectable parts have no need: but God has arranged the body together, having given more abundant honor to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it. Now you are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
(1Cor 12:14-27)
ian vincent
January 19, 2011 at 12:39 am
Man I’m glad this thread came up again. Just look at the manifold wisdom of God working through His many membered body. There is a very loving and balanced truth presented here that the greatest theologians could not make a good argument against.
“Now you are the body of Christ, and members in particular”
In Him,
Jim
fleebabylon
January 19, 2011 at 2:26 am